Bryan Dewsbury: 00:13

Welcome to knowledge unbound. Episode seven is about to go live. Knowledge Unbound is a podcast, an interview podcast, where we talk to people who do transformative work, change making work, social justice work, equity work, and science education and education in general. We are generously funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. We are overseen by the Rios Institute for Racially Just Inclusive Open STEM education.

Bryan Dewsbury: 00:42

I am generously joined by my favorite producer, my only producer, mister Segev Amasai. The one and only. I I wanna say a special thank you. Segev is in finals week. I am not jeopardizing his finals by having him help me record his intro and outro, but I just want you all to show Segem some love.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:04

Computing computer engineering major class of 2025. Segem, what's up?

Segev Amasay: 01:09

Oh, doing pretty well. I can't say I'm not, you know, a little stressed out by the finals, but hey, you know, it's something that everyone has to go through. But I do want to, you know, should I bring that up or should I let

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:24

you bring that up?

Segev Amasay: 01:24

Because remember, I said some I said the one and only, but, you know, this week we have, you know, there's not just one interviewee, but there are two.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:36

Well, yeah, well, you brought it up. So I guess you answered your question. You know? But it is what it is. So but they're they're they're good guests, and, actually, this is gonna be a great conversation.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:44

It's a good segue because, you know, these are people know you have finals. Most people have finals. It's kinda one of those staples of college life, but these are two instructors who think really differently about what it means to teach a classroom. And I guess what I really loved about their story, you'll hear over the next hour, is how their their journey to writing this very famous book called Inclusive Teaching, West Virginia Press, came from the experiences that they had with students like yourself. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury: 02:12

And what they saw they they were doing and what could be better. So as always, friends, we we we have a conversation with them, tell this have them tell their story, a story to the writing of the book, and the story for what education could look like in general. So welcome to another episode of knowledge unbound. I hope you enjoy. This is this is a great day.

Bryan Dewsbury: 02:36

I am actually I came all the way up to Duke campus. I was lost. I'm gonna blame one of my guests for that. You'll find out in a second. I mean, I did have the wrong time, but Duke could be a confusing campus depending if you've ever been here.

Bryan Dewsbury: 02:52

Beautiful campus though, and you should come. And Doctor. Kelly Hogan was kind enough to get us some space in a recording studio here. So I'm here with Doctor. Kelly Hogan and Doctor.

Bryan Dewsbury: 03:03

Fiji Sathi, who are the authors of book Inclusive Teaching, which right now should have made the rounds on every single college campus on the planet. Fiji, did I pronounce your name correctly? Another thing I wanna make sure. Okay. You give me the head nod.

Bryan Dewsbury: 03:18

Yeah. You and I know how this works, right? With the whole name thing. And as I've always done with every episode, I don't like to do the, I'm gonna read off your CV and all your accomplishments and what you do. I want you to tell us.

Bryan Dewsbury: 03:30

I want each of you to tell us what your role is and we're gonna get into some of the incredible stuff that you've been doing. Kelly, why don't we start with you?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 03:39

Okay. So what my role is?

Bryan Dewsbury: 03:42

Yes.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 03:43

So I am currently a new faculty member in biology at Duke University. I recently came from UNC Chapel Hill where I had spent my entire teaching career. At Duke, I am also the director of undergraduate studies in biology.

Bryan Dewsbury: 04:00

Okay, what does that mean?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 04:02

I am doing some work around the curriculum. So I lead the curriculum committee and I'm taking a big look at the pedagogy and the design of the curriculum.

Bryan Dewsbury: 04:14

Okay. Was it a thing to be stolen from Chapel Hill?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 04:20

It was a

Bryan Dewsbury: 04:21

thing. Well, let's find out how much of a thing it is because you left your partner in crime back where you started. Vigi, why don't you introduce yourself?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 04:32

So my name's Vigi Sathi, and I'm at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and I have been there for fifteen years. But prior to that, I had also been there as a grad student and an undergrad. So I know the campus pretty well. I am currently a professor in psychology and neuroscience, but I have a few different hats now that are a little more salient. I am the senior associate dean for evaluation and assessment in our office of undergraduate education.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 04:58

I lead a program that is called the Townsend Program for Education Research, which helps faculty publish, produce research on teaching. And the final hat is I am the director of the academic leadership program and that is run out of our Institute for Arts and Humanities. And I work with a cohort of faculty every year to explore academic leadership and faculty to reflect on what's next for them.

Bryan Dewsbury: 05:28

That's a lot of hats.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 05:29

It is a lot

Bryan Dewsbury: 05:30

of hats. Do you miss Kelly?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 05:32

I do, but we talk a lot, so it's good, but I don't run into her on campus and we certainly don't have as many committee meetings together.

Bryan Dewsbury: 05:40

Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna start with a book because one of the things I enjoy about reading books in general, but perhaps maybe books like the ones that you all wrote. And just to remind you all is called Inclusive Teaching. It's published by West Virginia Press.

Bryan Dewsbury: 06:00

You started the journey by talking about being assembled as a group of faculty to reflect on teaching. And if I have my timelines right, this is a time when yes, there were a lot of centers of teaching and learning encouraging this practice, but it common, right? It wasn't a sort of expected part of your profession to think about if you are part of the problem or part of if things went well or didn't. And obviously that meeting and that encounter and that gathering that you all had with that group then led to this project. Walk us a little bit through that journey.

Bryan Dewsbury: 06:41

Right? Because let me put this aside two different way. The other people who attended the same workshop, right? The other people who've been and this is not to cast as questions on them. This is just to say that something clicked.

Bryan Dewsbury: 06:54

And I and I want I want my audience to hear from you how you went from, it's interesting to think about my class this way to we should write a book about it.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 07:07

Yeah. And I should also mention my husband was in that group.

Bryan Dewsbury: 07:10

Okay.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 07:11

Already my husband.

Bryan Dewsbury: 07:14

Why the clarification?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 07:20

Good things did come out of that group. I would say a lot of people took on leadership roles and did make some really positive changes in their courses and all, but nobody clicked, like, a long term friendship and collaboration like Vigi and I did.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 07:36

Yeah. And I think the premise of the group, I remember when you had to apply, you actually applied to be part of the faculty learning community. And I remember thinking, I don't know if I have time for this. You know, I was teaching three large classes and the faculty learning community, as it was set up, was for faculty who taught what are called 100 plus, so at least one hundred in a classroom. I was a couple years into teaching and I thought, I'll just put my name in the hat because I did find it challenging to teach that many students.

Bryan Dewsbury: 08:09

Did you know Kelly before that?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 08:10

I did not know Kelly before I think a colleague had mentioned that I might like to meet Kelly, but we hadn't really interacted at all until that faculty learning community. But really I think what clicked, and we talked about this in the book, was observing each other teach. We did triangles in the group and met before and after every observation. But when we saw each other teach, even though it's biology and statistics, the same subjects at all, it became really apparent that we were kindred spirits in the classroom.

Bryan Dewsbury: 08:44

What was apparent?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 08:47

I think we both don't like to entertain. Both don't like to be the center of attention. We could see in each other that what we were doing in the classroom was really about the student. It was a student focus, it was about student learning, and we could both feel that sense of like, Get the spotlight off me. This is about student learning.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 09:09

And of course we were having conversations in addition to observing each other. We both actually graduated from college the same year. We were in grad school at the same time at UNC Chapel Hill.

Bryan Dewsbury: 09:24

Oh really?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 09:24

Didn't know each other then. So we have some

Bryan Dewsbury: 09:26

Well I guess you were in the statistics department on your science.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 09:29

Psych. Okay.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 09:30

Yeah, and I was over in the med school. So our paths didn't cross, but we have similar timelines and even some similar memories, parallel memories. We both were mothers of two kids, so there were just a lot of life things that were also in common for us. And then really just started talking about our personalities and how the classroom didn't fit with our personalities the way we had always seen the classroom. With big personalities and charisma and smiles being what students reported as good teaching.

Bryan Dewsbury: 10:04

Right. Right. So tell me a little bit about that because what I feel like you just described was you recognize in each other that you're in a similar mental space when you are physically in the classroom. But I guess I wanna hear maybe a little bit more about that space is like. I know you say you don't like the spotlight on you.

Bryan Dewsbury: 10:27

Get that. What does that look like in the moment? Right? And I know, yes, I know you're thinking about student learning. Get all the good research around that, but what's the affect that you try to generate in a place where, okay, don't want this spotlight.

Bryan Dewsbury: 10:44

I want to be on student learning, but I do also want to cultivate something really special here and I want them to get that.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 10:53

Well, don't know that I definitely didn't have the language for this when we were observing, but I saw a lot of the things that we now have the language for like instructor talk, really thinking through coaching students through hard ideas and having them do work, right? Like that was a big part of it too, is there were periods of the class where it was not just that the spotlight wasn't on us, but we were actually in the rows and in the classroom helping students to do things and giving them feedback and coming back. I mean, I guess I would just say it's more like a facilitator of learning rather than sort of the content dispenser.

Bryan Dewsbury: 11:35

Oh, content dispenser, you said? Okay. I thought you said your name was Spencer. I don't

Dr. Viji Sathy: 11:38

know why.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 11:40

And also hosting. The way you host a party and you're worried about, is everybody having a good time? Are those people meshing? How can I help the interactions go better? I feel like even with hundreds of students, that's the mindset I'm in.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 11:56

I know I'm not gonna reach everybody, but as I'm walking around, I'm trying to gauge, is this going well for them? What's the name of that book that clicked for both of us about hosting?

Bryan Dewsbury: 12:09

No. I really wanna know.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 12:11

The Art of Gathering?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 12:12

Yes. The Art of Gathering. Mhmm. Yeah. I think as soon as we read that, we were like, yeah.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 12:15

That's exactly like a classroom for us. Mhmm.

Bryan Dewsbury: 12:18

Yeah. Okay. I I I I gonna push you a little bit more here because

Dr. Viji Sathy: 12:24

I had to the right answer?

Bryan Dewsbury: 12:25

No. No. No. I I I this is an ungraded class. I had a pleasure several years ago.

Bryan Dewsbury: 12:34

I can't remember who did it. I think it was a chronicle and they had taken a video of you teaching. Am I recalling that correctly? Yeah. And it was as an example, right, of if I remember the video correctly, you were facilitating group work And you would sort of ask questions and you know, get some feedback and then you kind of describe your whole approach.

Bryan Dewsbury: 12:59

Right. And I guess the whole like hosting a party thing is a good metaphor. But it's not just about at least the way you describe it is not just about well is everybody okay. It's almost like an extreme form of empathy. So it's almost like in this moment, comp your all your bandwidth is devoted to everybody's, you know, growth, whether it be in having fun at your house house party or, you know, feeling a sense of belonging and and community and growth in the classroom.

Bryan Dewsbury: 13:30

Right? And for me, that is that has to be above and beyond just not wanting a spotlight on you. There's something else that has to drive that.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 13:38

Mhmm.

Bryan Dewsbury: 13:39

Is that something you've ever reflected on?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 13:42

Well, I mean, I I do think it goes back to childhood and who I am.

Bryan Dewsbury: 13:47

Okay.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 13:47

I always gravitated towards even as as an older child, always gravitated back towards the babies and the kids. I was always caretaking. My jobs growing up were camp counselor, piano teacher, tutor. I mean, had food industry jobs too, but the meaningful ones to me were the ones where I was making connections and helping people and seeing what they needed. Yeah, I think that's a natural part of who I am.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 14:18

That kind of empathy and putting that into yourself as a teacher, that's a side of your brain that you have to tap into in addition to actually delivering content and knowing what you're doing with the material. So it's a lot of brain space and I'm not sure I did a good job with that early on. But many years into teaching, it was a place I could tap into in the classroom.

Bryan Dewsbury: 14:42

Do you feel like it's half and half, like half your brain is battling content and half your brain is doing the kind of humanism side, like everything you just described?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 14:54

Yeah. I mean, it probably bounces around. Like right now, I'm developing a new course. Mhmm. So I I don't I feel like I have as much space for that human side, but but because I'm an experienced teacher Mhmm.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 15:06

I know I'm doing okay with it. But I have always taught the same courses over and over and over, which some people can't understand. But for me it's this great experiment. What works? Not just in terms of seeing the data and learning, but what works for the students.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 15:24

What worked five years ago isn't what works today because of the pandemic and generational changes. So yeah, I'm always in that space thinking, but it depends how comfortable I am with the course I'm teaching too.

Bryan Dewsbury: 15:37

With that, and Vigi I'll get to you in a second, with that, since you bring up some of these major events, what are some of the events that have occurred in the last, say, five, ten years and how has it impacted the way you approach your students?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 15:53

Yeah. Mean, it's hard to know what's generational, like what would have changed as you watch students move through and you stay the same age versus this major, you know, event with COVID and world changes going on. I think, you know, some of the practical things that change are how willing are students to talk to each other, to be engaged with each other, what is their endurance in the classroom for concentration, anxiety, some things that we can name in ways that maybe we weren't naming. Maybe they were always there. Maybe the anxiety was always Maybe it's increased.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 16:38

Reading comprehension. How has that changed with technology that these students have grown up with? Those are the things I'm always thinking about. But from the side of like, what is it like to be people in this generation and in this cohort as opposed to these kids today. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury: 16:54

Yeah. Well, these kids today. Vigi, what about you? What have you observed in the last ten years?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 17:07

Well, I don't know that. I mean, I think it's a lot of the same things that Kelly has pointed out. I'll also say that during COVID, I shifted roles. And so I have been supporting faculty more in the last few years and not in the classroom as much. And it has been a different set of issues.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 17:30

It's really supporting faculty around the kinds of things that Kelly is talking about. And that, I don't know, sometimes I wonder if anything has changed and it's just our perspective as we get older and have more experience. Because I feel that there are some things where I think the people more senior to me were saying these things before and I wasn't hearing it or responding in the same way. But I also think there are unique issues that even the people who are senior to us didn't experience. So I think there's a lot we're gonna keep learning about how COVID and all of the social movements we've experienced in the last few years are gonna impact student learning.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 18:18

So

Bryan Dewsbury: 18:20

in the book you talked a lot about the ways in which your parents invested in your education and really communicated that how important that was. Talk to me about, well, I guess both just that eternal love, right? For investing in you in that way, but also what your experience in education was like and what you've brought forward to your classrooms in your current role.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 18:52

Well, I grew up in a small town in North Carolina and I was the only person who looked like me in those classrooms. So I felt like in some ways I did stick out all the time.

Bryan Dewsbury: 19:04

I have a presidential candidate who tells a serious story, just FYI. No relation, but just saying.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 19:13

I don't know. I mean, I always felt like I had to prove myself in a lot of settings, but I was also very quiet. And I think, in a lot of the K-twelve space, that is not a valued trait, to be a listener, to be somebody who allows others to go first. It's something that I now see as one of my superpowers, is to listen first. But then it was seen as a detriment and as something I needed to work on to be raising my hand, to be speaking up, because people saw me as smart, but they didn't see me being vocal about being smart.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 20:03

And

Dr. Viji Sathy: 20:04

so I always felt deficient in educational spaces like that. And I bought into that. I bought into feeling like it was something I needed to work on, But it wasn't until college and really my intro stats class that I got a sense of what a classroom could feel like in terms of moving through challenging material. But the instructor in that course really cared for us as people. And that's not to belittle anyone before that instructor.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 20:39

I think I had a lot of caring instructors, but I saw how it can look in a particular way. And the example I offer is that I had an offhand remark about being in a concert. I was in concert band at Carolina and the instructor said, Oh, when's your concert? And I mentioned it and the concert rolled around and sure enough, she was in the audience listening and came and found me afterwards and said, Hello. I just remember being really moved because Carolina's a big place.

Bryan Dewsbury: 21:11

The university.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 21:12

Yeah, the university is a big place and can feel like just one of many there very easily, it was that experience. And then later this instructor wrote in the margins of my paper, Come see me about grad school. And I walked in and I said, What's grad school? And they really just sort of ushered me through the process of trying to figure out if that was the right move for me next. And so it was just that level of care that I experienced in that class that made me get a glimpse of what is possible in a classroom and how you can really change the trajectory of a person's life.

Bryan Dewsbury: 21:49

And

Dr. Viji Sathy: 21:50

so I appreciated that a lot and it was something I wrestled with when I got into the classroom because I wasn't, unlike this class, which had 25 people, I was now in a room with 200 people. And I had to figure out how do I show that level of care to 200 people? Because it was just one of me.

Bryan Dewsbury: 22:08

Right. So I think that's where I'm sure that's a question you both get a lot when you run workshops. This is great, but I teach 300. What does this look like? How can I meet with every single student for one hour?

Bryan Dewsbury: 22:26

Can I talk to you as an immigrant?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 22:28

Sure.

Bryan Dewsbury: 22:28

Cause I'm one too. Yeah. You grew up in a small town in North Carolina. But when your front door was closed, were you back in India?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 22:41

It's hard to say exactly because I didn't spend a lot of time in India. So I would say it was probably a weird mix. I think, yeah, we spoke Tamil, which is the language that my my family speaks. We ate Indian food. You know, were a lot of things that you took shoes off at the front door.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 23:04

Like a lot of things that other people were really just, it was a novelty for them to see.

Bryan Dewsbury: 23:09

Well, here's why I asked. And I'd I'd certainly don't wanna get into a, you know, immigrant versus native born dynamic. Right? But, one of the things that I'm first generation, as you know, one of the things that I can reflect on now in terms of my history and how things in my history have impacted my journey is the amount of faith my parents placed in education. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury: 23:36

So so to a child growing up is just what you do at your tool, Part of what you're told is to just do well in school and I enjoyed it. So, know, there is that but but But I understand now what It wasn't just faith in education, it was, you know, places they can take your offspring that you couldn't travel. And this is me not knowing your parents or anything like that, but I'm just aligning with that transformative aspect of education. And what was interesting about the story you told about the stats teacher is you didn't mention anything about stats. You didn't mention a p value, you didn't mention a test, right?

Bryan Dewsbury: 24:14

And so this is the thing I find so incredible when people tell stories like that, that the transformative aspect of education most times has nothing to do with the content. This is not to dismiss the content, but it's to kind of dig deep and figure out what's that thing that makes us connect as human, right? And so, okay, so fast forward a little bit and I'm gonna say it again because it's a really good book, Inclusive Teaching West Virginia Press. It's a book about a lot of strategies and I guess what I like about it is that you give a lot of context to each strategy, then it's each chapter is bookended with some very kind of practical things. I know that you both do a lot of faculty development around that.

Bryan Dewsbury: 25:01

So tell us a little bit about that. And then I have some follow-up questions about your experiences in faculty development.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 25:06

Yeah, I think our faculty development started because I was being asked to do a couple of workshops around some textbook writing that I was doing with Pearson. Then on campus I had started doing a little bit of professional development, and it's no fun. No fun doing it alone. You start to ask, What do I have to offer? We all just have our own perspective.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 25:37

Did not identify as an education researcher or a practitioner, certainly. And Vigi and I had this friendship that was building, and we decided to try some stuff together and realized how much fun it was. And we balance each other out. As much as we are similar, we balance each other out in good ways too. Like my first response to any invitation is, no.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 26:07

And her response to too many things is yes.

Bryan Dewsbury: 26:10

But you told me yes. Is that did I make the cut? You

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 26:14

made the cut. Yeah. She she takes risks. She says yes to a lot of things, sometimes to her own detriment. So we balance each other out in that way.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 26:27

I was probably spinning my wheels trying to make a new thing for everything, and she was like, We can do this more efficiently. We have some expertise in this way, and we don't have to keep reinventing the wheel for every audience. So we got to a place of almost like when you're teaching the same class over and over, and you can start paying attention to all the other things and not designing the content. And that's when it became really fun to be co teaching together.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 26:54

Yeah, I'd say that we do balance each other out. And it's fun to have a, you know, we do some of these are on the road, it's fun to have a travel buddy to do this work with. And both as Kelly said, we both have children. So there's a lot of enjoyment that comes out of traveling together too, when you're away from your family and you have, it's a different work. It's not the same kind of work, but it's a chance to kind of explore.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 27:28

I always joke that it's like the college tour I never got. And that we really just went to a couple of schools and they were all, you know, a couple hours from my house. So it's a chance for me to affirm the choices I made, but also just to have a chance to see what the country looks like, literally, and with a friend, which is always fun. Mean, think it would be really hard to do on my own and I definitely would say no more if it was just by myself. But we managed to find fun things to do.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 27:57

And I think we're in such sync when we're together in teaching mode. Like, I can read her brain, she can read mine. When we were first getting started, while she was engaged with the audience, I would be looking around and seeing, oh, they laughed at that. Fiji, that's a funny one. Keep saying that.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 28:16

Or, oh, they're really nodding their heads. Like, whatever you just said there really got them. And those were the pieces that made it into our book. And that's how we shaped. The workshop was always shifting a little bit.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 28:28

Every time we'd sit down, we'd be like, Okay, need to change that slightly. We want to spend another two minutes on this. So it was like honing it to a place where we're like, this really resonates with a lot of people. And even though we're two women in STEM, it seems to be resonating with people in humanities, which we think is pretty terrific.

Bryan Dewsbury: 28:49

So what are some of the things you've seen out there in terms of when institutions request that you come? What have you seen in terms of like what their needs are, I guess what they think their needs are and what their real needs are, The levels of receptivity to this kind of thinking. I'm seeing this knowing that generally requires the one who shows up. Right. But to the extent that you can detect what the national landscape is for this kind of work, what are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 29:20

Well, I'd say you're right that oftentimes there are people who are interested in teaching that show up at the workshops, but we've done a lot of workshops too, where it is just faculty development day and everybody who is part of the campus is part of the event. So I think in general, pieces that people really feel appreciative of are, we sort of lay out the lens with which we want people to see teaching and to think about their role in the classroom as a person who can help level the playing field for students. That often gets people sort of open to the idea, and then we dig in a little deeper about some of the tweaks that they can make to their teaching. And I think this is the part where we mentioned this too, that we had been to some faculty development workshops ourselves and we'd encounter good ideas, energizing ideas, but then we'd leave and we'd say, well, what are we supposed to do with that? How does it look in practicality?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 30:29

I think because we're two scientists and we're very like, we want to get into it, right? Like formulas. Exactly. And not just that it has to be boring, but just like, we need the clear takeaways. And so I think that's where we focused was really helping faculty to have the clear takeaways from a session.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 30:48

So it feels useful when you've spent your sixty or ninety minutes with us that you've got something you can take away and practice and explore. I mean, think that's my goal is that a person leaves understanding why it's important and they have some strategies in their toolkit.

Bryan Dewsbury: 31:04

What have you seen in terms of institutional support?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 31:07

From the campuses we visit?

Bryan Dewsbury: 31:10

Yeah. And maybe just some more context to the question because to be honest with you, and you all know I do what you do as well. And I'm almost in two minds about it. Like, so on one hand, I thoroughly enjoy it. And I'm really grateful for the campuses who've invited me to give keynotes and run workshops.

Bryan Dewsbury: 31:34

But what I also see a lot of is very motivated, really good, very well meaning faculty who deep down really want to do the right thing. But are part of departments or institutions that has not yet figured out how to properly reward, incentivize and basically respect the profession of college teaching. And so I worry a little bit sometimes that, you know, we can get all the hundreds of thousands of teaching faculty motivated, but, you know, if there's still significant pay differentials, if you still can't vote in faculty senate, if you're still, you know, on one year contract, I mean, if those conditions aren't changed, then there is a hard, a ceiling, right, for the level of effect this can be. And so without trying to do everything all at once, I do try to spend some time working on some institutional change projects. And so I guess from that lens, I'm wondering what have you detected in terms of campuses saying, no, no.

Bryan Dewsbury: 32:32

We're not just gonna bring you here to do a nice ninety minutes and hope those low paid adjuncts go back and feel great about their class. We're actually doing all these other things to communicate that, No, no, no, this is our core product, and we're gonna show that we value it.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 32:50

Yeah, well we are sort of a one off when we go, right? So it's hard

Bryan Dewsbury: 32:55

to Yeah, mean it's not your job to do.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 32:57

It's hard to know always what's going on. Since we've written the book, know that many times there is a group that's reading the book, and so they're getting together multiple times. And then we come in at the end or before. So that's probably the easiest one for us to see. There are times when a department brings us in, and we actually enjoy those the most because it feels like that's where the work happens.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 33:24

I've been a part of a lot of other institutional project changes, and the department is the level where some of that initially happens. It starts with a leader in that department that recognizes some things have to change. Oftentimes you get the turnout of the faculty that you might normally not see if the campus hosts some big teaching and learning event. I'd say that other times the provost invites us and I think that sends a message. But it's hard to know as outsiders how much of that sticks and how that is part of a bigger institutional change.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 34:08

Yeah, and I respect the question about, are we just treating the fish? Are we actually thinking about the water that they're in and how it can be difficult for people to navigate? Especially as you say that I don't know that there are many institutions, if any, that are doing an outstanding job with valuing college teaching. But I think we drop sort of breadcrumbs for people about the kinds of things they could think about. So do talk about a dashboard we help to develop on campus, on UNC's campus to look at equity and grades at the end of the semester.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 34:49

There are some things where I think we recognize that most of the people we're talking to are practitioners and we want to offer those practitioners things to take away, but we also want the leaders in the room to hear some of the ideas that might bring some of that culture change you're talking about. And there are sometimes institutions that have us as part of a whole day of meeting with different stakeholders and talking to people. Those are fun conversations when we can say, what are you working on in your areas and how can we help you move them a little further along? Teaching evaluation is definitely one big area and promotion of teaching faculty. I think there's a lot, there's so much work to be done, But we have definitely made a lot of our focus on the practitioner.

Bryan Dewsbury: 35:40

Getting that starfish back into the water.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 35:43

Yeah, and I feel like a lot of times when we talk to those folks, we say things like, How are you a change agent? What are the ways you're being a sneaky change agent? Which is still not changing the whole system, you're still focused on one person and some practical ideas. Whether that's inviting someone to come to your class, not because you need their feedback, but because you want them to see what a classroom can look like and how it's different and asking for their feedback on that. So a lot of times we'll be talking to people who want to be making change in their role in some way and are looking for this community outside of their department or outside of their university saying, How did you get change in your space?

Bryan Dewsbury: 36:25

Okay. Yeah, mean, you know, to balance my own line of thinking. One of the points that I try to communicate is, is sometimes in higher ed or I guess in other places too as well. But sometimes there's this obsession about how little power you have, right? So if you're a student, know, as well as your faculty, if you're assistant professor, then as well as the associate and then, you know, and even presidents say, I don't know, I'm not a board of trustees and so I can't, know, and so you can easily find people who have more capital than you, but maybe a way to reframe that is think about the capital that you do have and you still have a chance to make change even visiting your own classroom.

Bryan Dewsbury: 37:05

Kelly talked to me a little bit about the data set that you sat on that you ended up working with our mutual friend, Sarah Eddie,

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 37:15

looking

Bryan Dewsbury: 37:17

at disproportionate pass rates. And so just walk us through our process of seeing the data, looking into it, sitting with it, deciding to make changes.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 37:30

Yeah, so it all sort of happened by coincidence that a colleague at our Center for Teaching and Learning at UNC Chapel Hill had gotten his hands on some data for big classes across campus. Biology one hundred one was on there. At that time, there were only two sections being taught every semester, and I was teaching half or more than half of them. So when I saw the data that showed these discrepancies based on race and ethnicity, I couldn't look away. They were mine.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 38:01

I had to own them. I'd never seen data like that from any kind of class, and here I was looking at really disappointing disparities in my own classroom. And on some level, overall, you're just looking at failure rates, you're like, oh, that's bad. I should know I'm failing that many students. But then you see it broken down.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 38:21

You're like, Oh, that is just unfair. And I often describe it like a punch in the gut, yet at the same time I was being told I was a good teacher by colleagues, by students. So lots of good teachers walking around out there that may not know there are these discrepancies in their own classroom.

Bryan Dewsbury: 38:40

So prior to you seeing that dataset, what knowledge, if any, did you have of the failure rates?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 38:49

I mean, had, you you submit grades, you look at a spreadsheet, right? But

Bryan Dewsbury: 38:54

you don't get like a 25% cut Fs.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 38:57

So, I mean, grading is this whole other area, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I first came on board, I didn't know anything about teaching really large classes. I'd never even been in one. And I got advice from someone in the chemistry department that I should use a normal curve.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 39:15

So I did.

Bryan Dewsbury: 39:16

How a resident statistician would tell us. And

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 39:22

I'm so disappointed in past self for that. And of course, you know, you look around at all the other professors teaching and it's like, that's what we do in STEM.

Bryan Dewsbury: 39:35

Well, could be worse. I had a biochem teacher who told us 90% of you will fail and he was right. So that be left skewed, right skewed? I forgot my one on ones. BG, you have to you have to forgive me.

Bryan Dewsbury: 39:48

So there's that. We could do that. But, so normal is a step up, but Okay. Not not what you

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 39:53

Well, doesn't feel good.

Bryan Dewsbury: 39:54

I I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 39:57

So I think I was coming from this place of, like, this traditional STEM field where you're like, of course it's normal for lots of your students to fail. You look at the data and you're like, is it normal for these students to be the ones failing? Right? That's a different

Bryan Dewsbury: 40:13

But something else becomes predictive.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 40:15

Yeah. And so I really had to, as you say, sit with it, and and my intuition was what did I do? What did I do wrong? What can I fix? Which looking back on it, that's just who I am, but looking back on it, I guess the alternative was to blame the students, right?

Bryan Dewsbury: 40:36

Because a lot of people would have looked at that same data set and like, well, you know, hopefully get a better set next year.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 40:41

Mhmm. So, I mean, knowing the colleague that showed me the data Mhmm. He selected me. Having known me already.

Bryan Dewsbury: 40:52

Right. Knowing that you would react in

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 40:54

a certain Yeah. You know, we both didn't know where it would go, and I said, well, I am thinking about making some changes, and this is definitely feeding into some of the changes I think I need to make. And he said, Well, let's collect some data before you make that change. Let's at least do a survey. We can get some initial statistics when you make the change.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 41:14

And we had some initial data right away. So I was sitting on a data set that the Center for Teaching and Learning helped me with.

Bryan Dewsbury: 41:25

As in your classes still?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 41:26

From my classes, yeah. And I had no idea what to do with them. I was a molecular biologist geneticist. Even the dataset was too big and confusing for me to work with on my own. But I went to a conference, the SABR conference that biologists education researchers go to, and I figured, I'll put a poster together and the people at the Center for Teaching and Learning help me.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 41:52

And the poster laid out this idea that there was a discrepancy, but there was a fix as well, that we had closed some gaps between first gen and non first gen students, that we had made improvements along race and ethnicity. And I was at this poster session, and not long before, Scott Freeman had a paper came out Mhmm. That looked at very similar things, looking at discrepancies and fixes for them with increased course structure. Mhmm. And I got to the meeting, and I said, okay.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 42:24

I'm gonna be brave. I'm gonna walk up to Scott Freeman. And I didn't know anything about him, but I said, I'd love for you to come by my poster because I think I replicated some of the work that you have done. And from the walk from where he was to my poster, we had a chance to talk for a minute, and he goes, oh, this is not a replication. This is so exciting.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 42:47

You know, you have a different population of students, and I have I have to look at what you've done. And, like, ten minutes later, he he was like, what can I do? What can I do to help you? How do we get this out into the world? And I said, I need a mentor.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 43:03

And then like within an hour

Bryan Dewsbury: 43:05

I'm a statistician. Yeah. Exactly.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 43:08

And then the more he thought about it, he came back to me an hour later. He's like, how about a postdoc? Would a postdoc help you get this workout in the field? And I was like, yeah. And so he introduced me to Sarah Eddy, who was a postdoc at the time for him.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 43:22

We sat at a high top table at the conference center. And before long, we had a plan for getting the institutional data directly to her and what we were gonna do with it.

Bryan Dewsbury: 43:34

So you talked about having the numbers. Do you have any qualitative data from the students, either from when things were low persistence or afterwards about the experience, about what it meant to be like in the classroom, things like that?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 43:52

Yeah. So that's where the data that the colleague from Center of Teaching and Learning suggested, let's do a survey. Know, asked questions around community and belonging and things like that. I mean, in hindsight, I probably would have asked other questions as well. But one of the things we did see was an increased sense of community.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 44:16

We saw students close what we would call a discussion gap, like the ability to feel comfortable talking in class. And that comes from that the mode wasn't just raise your hand and talk to 400 people. The mode became talking to each other. Things like that. Okay.

Bryan Dewsbury: 44:33

Did you have a big dataset, Vigi?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 44:35

Always have big datasets. Did

Bryan Dewsbury: 44:37

you need statistician's help? You need to phone a friend.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 44:42

You had a collaborator.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 44:46

Yeah. No. I I my problem is having too much data all the time, wanting to ask all the questions.

Bryan Dewsbury: 44:53

Well, after after a certain number, everything gets significant. Right?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 44:56

So it's It's true. It's true. Well,

Bryan Dewsbury: 45:00

what I I I'm a little bit more familiar with Kelly's history, not maybe a personal history, but just the kind of issues we have in bio because that's my feel as well. Not as much as an intro stats. I mean, know your story. I've known your story for a while. And I know you teach stats now.

Bryan Dewsbury: 45:20

What are some of the challenges, I guess, other than maybe fixed mindset around quantitative subjects that students have? What are some of the challenges that you've encountered and that you've helped kind of overcome?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 45:32

I think, well, the fixed mindset was huge. And because I teach statistics within psychology and neuroscience, it's one of the required courses. So students don't always understand why it's important to learn the subject matter. But like I said, that was the class that was sort of the turning point for me. Especially as somebody who appreciated my math classes, but didn't really understand the point of them.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 45:59

Statistics made it real, what this could be used for. So I hope to spark a little bit of that for my students. The other thing is that, at least on our campus, and it might be more universally, our psychology, we just recently added neuroscience, but so psychology in general has a lot, it's more, there's more enrollment from women than men. So I'd say like 75% of my class were people who identified as women. I had a unique opportunity in a quantitative class to really bring more women into the field to sort of help them see their potential place in the field.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 46:41

But I think for me that the main driver was I wanted them to see there was a point in doing all of this work and that they could appreciate. I always say like the lessons at the end of the semester, I'd give them some takeaways. And one of the takeaways is you either really love it and you wanna continue doing it or explore it, or you know when to call a statistician. Like, you know that this is the time not to take it on yourself. Kelly.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 47:03

And those are the things that I really wanted my students to have a basic level of understanding, because you can open a paper and there's a graph there. It doesn't mean that it's a good graph. So I think there's some basic literacy that I wanted them to have around quantitative material too. Because I do think it should be, and I've always said this, I think stats should be required of every student just because we're such numerically oriented. I mean, can be pretty numerically oriented.

Bryan Dewsbury: 47:38

Yeah. One of my biggest regrets coming out of undergrad was never having taken a stats class. It was optional. Calc was required, but it was optional. So I tried to make up for it by taking like 15 credits as that's in grad school.

Bryan Dewsbury: 47:54

I think it it got me good enough to be dangerous and like, you know, somewhat literate at looking at what SPS has spat out. But but, yeah, as as you get more into it, it it just really helps you understand the world. Because even even you talking about the students, right? I I just think of simple stuff, like you're watching TV and you see something that says two out of three doctors recommend this. Okay, was it three doctors?

Bryan Dewsbury: 48:16

Was it 300? Like, but you don't get that information. You just get that. So just having your mind to hear that and know how to critically analyze, hear that message. Tell me a little bit.

Bryan Dewsbury: 48:31

I I wanna ask this in a way that doesn't, you know, put you in any real hot water. You know, it's not it's not a trap question. That's just not my style. Right? But but we we are doing the kind of work we do in a in a very different political landscape than say even three, four years ago.

Bryan Dewsbury: 48:48

I think some of us saw it coming. Right? And and, you know, I I think universities for the most part, at least in my experience, still very much interested in having these conversations. I would say that the way a lot of times the way I have, I choose to have the conversation has always been a little bit different to maybe some, which takes somebody spotlight away from, from it in terms of language, etcetera. But that being said, understand, I understand the fear that some people have within, right?

Bryan Dewsbury: 49:29

And so I'm feeling daily calls on how do I talk about this in my class? Should I change my syllabus? You know, some people are moving, right? What has been your experience both personally, but also as you kind of evangelize this work?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 49:48

I mean, we are in a state where people are questioning DEI generally. You know, when we started to write this book, when we were doing workshops, I never would have thought that the word inclusive would be something we would attack. So, I mean, sure, I recognize now that might be a little naive, but it felt like, especially the way we were talking about it, it felt like how could you take issue with making sure that every student in your classroom feels like they belong and that you do everything you can to help people, not just understand the material, but to really grow as a student and as a person. So I think there are some parts of it that I even still today, I'm like, if you actually read the book, I'm not sure you would take issue with the way we're talking about things. But that's not how sound bites work.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 50:46

That's not how

Bryan Dewsbury: 50:48

I have- Why would I read your book?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 50:49

Yeah. That's just not how people have been generally talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, in the media at least. So I think there's some parts of it that are hard to hear just because it is, this is something we're both passionate about. So it's not great when you feel like that is under attack. But at the same time, I will say we continue to do our work.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 51:17

We continue to be, our colleagues really value what we do. And so I see a place for it. I see there are things that we can continue doing, but sometimes it does feel like we have to kind of go in stealth mode and really think about the words, even the title of the session at some schools that we go to, right? Like it's not fair, but at the same time we wanna keep doing the work. So, I think that's where we are.

Bryan Dewsbury: 51:45

Let me ask you a quick follow-up if it's okay, because I'll tell you about an experience I had recently. Was at a campus which I'll not name. And someone came up to me near the end of the day, right? And said, you know, just wanted you to know that I am a conservative, I'm a Republican, I'm a Republican. And I generally feel very attacked on this campus.

Bryan Dewsbury: 52:12

And I really want to thank you for making me feel welcome during this day. Right? And, you know, obviously I was appreciative of the comment, but it also got me thinking about even what you're just saying about, yeah, you're right. If people read your book, like how could you disagree with wanting to include every student? So then I started wondering, well, okay, in theory, that's a point we should all agree on.

Bryan Dewsbury: 52:40

But in practice, they could still see books like yours, books like mine, and see it as a source of attack that the journey towards that inclusive space is some way means that people who identify a certain way get spotlight. And this is not what you've done in the book, but I'm seeing it so it can be perceived. So we know what we want in theory and we know what we want in practice. What is the messaging that's needed, right? So that people who maybe have not been historically marginalized, but see our push, our collective push to getting the marginalized included as an attack on them.

Bryan Dewsbury: 53:22

What's the communication we need to have so that that doesn't necessarily happen. Or at least they feel kind of part of the same journey.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 53:31

And

Bryan Dewsbury: 53:33

that to me is a bigger challenge of this work that honestly, I don't really think a lot of people take up. I think sometimes it's a little bit of, you know, how could you debate this? It's equity, right? Like, well, yeah it is, yes, but I'm trying to, in trying to be like super empathetic and think of what people hear and when they hear the term. That's the thing we have to speak to.

Bryan Dewsbury: 53:54

Mhmm.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 53:55

We try and use a lot of analogies and identities that everybody can relate to that are not about marginalized, racialized identities. We talk a lot about being introverts versus extroverts. We talk about what it means to have universal design in an airport, how that helps everybody, right? But it certainly helps

Bryan Dewsbury: 54:19

some You hear that LAX? Oh gosh.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 54:24

So I think it is trying to find some common ground to start the conversation in a way that doesn't feel like people are being attacked and doesn't start with the words that are already feeling like, oh, that's part of that conversation I don't want to Some people are afraid to have conversations about race, gender identities.

Bryan Dewsbury: 54:47

Could I interrupt you just really Because then here's the other challenge with everything you're seeing. Do people do some people who are marginalized and still are feel that their marginalization is being dismissed? Yep. Because now you using you have to use this sort of centrist language.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 55:09

Mhmm.

Bryan Dewsbury: 55:09

Right? I'm not I'm not asking this as a I have an answer for you. I'm asking this as a this is the challenge, right? To to live in both spaces as trying to communicate is very valuable point.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 55:20

Mhmm. Yeah. And obviously that's not my lived experience. I

Bryan Dewsbury: 55:25

I wouldn't say obviously, but

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 55:27

Yeah. It's not my lived experience. Hear that, and I think that's why it's so great that we're an army and a diverse group of people that are doing this work. Because people will receive the message differently with who's saying it, the space they're in for being ready to listen, the entry point. Yeah, and I think that is a criticism certainly that you could make of our work, that it is too centrist.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 55:58

That's a bit of a lens that we take at times to welcome people into this space to keep moving deeper.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 56:06

Yeah. I think I feel a little bit differently in that, you know, there are times where I think I don't wanna shy away from the harder issues and not shy away, that's not the right word, but just I do want that to be sometimes a focus. But I also recognize that, you know, just the same way that when we are in the classroom, we have the students we have, and the goal is to get them to a certain place. And I see that the same way with faculty development work. We have the faculty we have.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 56:39

So how do we, as Kelly says, open the door for them to really think about some of these issues in a different way? And it turns out that sometimes when you put a spotlight on a group or a personality or something, there's like this moment for people. Oh, I was like that in the classroom, or this would be better for me if it were this way, right? Like whatever it is that gets people just open to the possibility, then you think, okay, great. Now you're gonna have all these other byproducts as a result of doing these things.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 57:11

But I do see us as sort of this entry point for some people to kind of think about is what I'm doing something that is maybe not helping all students to succeed? And can we change something that might help more students to succeed? But going back to your original question, I mean, I think a lot of this has to do with, is this a zero sum game? Do people stand to lose when we have equity?

Bryan Dewsbury: 57:41

And

Dr. Viji Sathy: 57:44

I think that's a larger question that no one seems to be willing to take. Like, I think people are, some people have the idea that yes, people will lose when we have equity. And some people are like, no, actually.

Bryan Dewsbury: 57:57

And how do you define loss?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 57:58

Yeah. Right.

Bryan Dewsbury: 57:59

Because having less doesn't necessarily mean loss.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 58:03

Yeah. So I think there are bigger questions about whether or not we're ready to say that all students deserve to have a good learning experience and to really succeed whatever that success looks like.

Bryan Dewsbury: 58:19

Yeah. Man, I could run down so many rabbit holes right now. Well, going back to immigrant Brian, right? I guess one of the things that I think I feel a little fortunate in the sense that I grew up in a different cultural context. But I have now lived for twenty five years in The US context as a black male.

Bryan Dewsbury: 58:45

Right. And when I walked on the street, no one looks at me and says, Oh, there's a Trinidadian. He must have a different experience. Now as a sidebar, I just want to use that to make the point like, you know, we should all be careful when we use terms like black, white and because it masks so much nuance

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 59:01

and

Bryan Dewsbury: 59:01

stuff like that. Right. But, but what that means is when I'm having these conversations, I'm having them partly from lived experience, but partly from being an observer. You know, somebody can speak about this kind of intellectually and at a distance and I can put it to bed when I come home and with my family. And I know for some colleagues who is pretty much 100% lived experience, it's just too emotional.

Bryan Dewsbury: 59:33

Just, they can't, it's really tough for them to move to the center because they, you know, as Jonathan Haidt would say, the elephant keeps kind of pulling them back because I remember an older gentleman, older black gentleman told me one day, said to me white supremacy defined my life. Right? Now, I don't use the words white supremacy when I give talks and stuff like that, but but kind of listen to my hearing explain that. I understand why he needs certain messages to communicate something in that space.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 01:00:05

Mhmm.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:00:06

I guess that's just my long way of saying is that acknowledge a challenge. And it seems like you do as well. All right, let me get you out to you on this one. So ten years from now, I run into you. I know you'll still be best friends.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 01:00:26

That is true. That is the only thing I know actually.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:00:30

No, no. You you, what would you say? And this is not like, nothing's definite, Who knows the future? But okay, let me ask the question this way. What would you like to have seen happen in ten years?

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:00:44

Not necessarily for Vigeo for Kelly, right? But just for the kinds of issues that you're working on. And maybe if you're brave enough, tell us where you see yourself, what role you are playing in making that happen. That's a Jeopardy music for those who don't know.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 01:01:09

Well, I'll

Dr. Viji Sathy: 01:01:09

be optimistic. I I will say I hope ten years from now we figure out this whole teaching evaluation crap that we're in. Mhmm. That I think there's great work happening, lots of grants around this. Think we'll have a better sense, better tools, better ways, but technology hopefully will help us.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:01:29

Why teaching eval specifically?

Dr. Viji Sathy: 01:01:31

Teaching eval is because it's an area that I spend some of my time thinking about in my role and just how challenging it is to improve as an educator and to think about the way academia is set up without really accurately assessing that. But also I would hope that teaching is more valued generally, but I think less

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:01:59

You don't sound very optimistic about that. Training is not enough I

Dr. Viji Sathy: 01:02:03

think it's harder to imagine how that change will come about. So I can think more concrete steps about things that could actually change. And people are having conversations about lots of ways data will help us to illuminate disparities, but also maybe some of the solutions to the challenges that we face. But I know what else, because in some ways in academia things move slow and they move fast. I don't know, are some things that all of a sudden we're doing things differently than we have been doing, but the basic ideas are pretty much the same as they've been.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 01:02:46

Yeah, it's true. Ten years doesn't feel like it'll be that different. That being said, I'm very optimistic about new faculty. I'm seeing new assistant faculty whose main role is research, but they're coming in with knowledge about teaching, they're coming in about enthusiasm in a way that I think wasn't there. Now hopefully it won't get squashed by the system that says don't spend your time on teaching because plenty of colleagues are still told don't spend any extra time on teaching.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 01:03:22

And so we have to fight that a bit so that, as you said, it's not just the people that are the adjuncts and the fixed term faculty who are the ones taking care of teaching. We have these hierarchies in higher ed that the folks that are doing research as their main job aren't also improving their teaching and equity for students.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:03:46

Nice ray of light. I share your optimism honestly. And I think it's a benefit and I hope you feel, it sounds like you feel the same of being able to travel and do this work. I've seen a lot of good things in places where, in fact, what I feel like I've seen is places that are actually doing better than even they think they're doing. Because it's almost as though we're wired to say the warts.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:04:13

But because I have that comparative lens, can say, you know, their campus is not even having this At least you're all fighting about it. At least it's going back and forth. I know I think of think places like, you know, Worcester Polytechnic which flattened the the tenure stream between research and teaching. You know, I think about places like Valencia College and all that. Know of actually examples where teaching is valued and they are real proofs of principle of what it could look like.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:04:41

So I'm cautiously optimistic. What's your next book gonna be?

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 01:04:48

It's gonna be an edited volume. I

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:04:53

love how you all laughed at the exact same This

Dr. Viji Sathy: 01:04:57

is like asking somebody who just gave birth. When's the next baby coming? Nope. Too soon. Well, way we

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 01:05:04

wrote the first one was our experience getting out on campuses is what led to writing the book. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had material. Right now, we're still doing a lot of the same kind of work. I think we're waiting to see when things feel different and we have more to say. We're not out there just trying to say stuff.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 01:05:24

And I do think we would like to get into the public space a bit more. We've written some more public articles. We had something in the newspaper, local newspaper.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 01:05:40

Like an op ed,

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 01:05:41

yeah. Yeah. We really want to bring this message, like, this is about student success.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:05:48

Mhmm.

Dr. Kelly Hogan: 01:05:50

Let's not villainize all these words.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:05:52

Right. Kelly, VG, thank you for your time. Thank you. Knowledge and Bound is brought to you by the RIOS Institute for Racially Just Inclusive Open STEM Education. We are generously funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:06:27

I want to thank my producer, Mr. Segev Amazai. Did you enjoy the episode, Segev?

Segev Amasay: 01:06:34

Yes, I did.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:06:35

Can you imagine what it would be like if you had every class had professors like that?

Segev Amasay: 01:06:41

Honestly, well, with the things that are going on right now, I definitely think a change is needed, and that's what you guys are here for.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:06:49

I'm gonna I'm gonna organize a transfer for you to to Kelly Hogan's class. Sure. Yeah. It it was really fun talking to them, man, and and and good luck good luck in your finals, the ones you haven't taken yet. Thank you.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:07:02

Thank you. Definitely want to thank Kelly and Vici, good friends of mine, great people, good good writers who really, you know, bared their soul to to put what it means to grow into inclusive teachers. And I think one you might remember we talked about this in the episode, but it's also in their book about how their partnership became solid from a professional development opportunity at UNC Chapel Hill where they both were at one time. And maybe that's my takeaway lesson for you. Wherever you are, find your community.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:07:37

Find your people who share your beliefs, who can remind you that you're not crazy, and who with whom you could perhaps start building that critical mass because that's how change is gonna happen. So until the next episode where we'll get into another wonderful conversation, I ask, be excellent to each other.

Dr. Viji Sathy: 01:08:02

You know, when we started to write this book, we were doing workshops, I never would have thought that the word inclusive would be something we would attack. So, I mean, I sure I I recognize now that I may be a little naive, but it felt like, especially the way we were talking about it, felt like how could you take issue with making sure that every student in your classroom feels like they belong, and that you do everything you can to help people not just understand the material, but to really grow as a student and as a person. So I think there are some parts of it that I even still today, I'm like, if you actually read the book, I'm not sure you would take issue with the way we're talking about things.