Season 1 Episode 6 - Dr. Timothy Eatman | Innovating education
Welcome, everyone. Welcome to episode six. We are we are rolling, Zigef.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:We're already more than halfway.
Bryan Dewsbery:Well, I don't wanna make it more than halfway makes it sound like, you know, we just can't wait to get it done, and that's not the case. As a reminder, my friends, this is Knowledge Unbound, an interview podcast brought to you by the Science Education and Society program at FIU. We are generously funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, which funds the Rios Institute for Racially Just Inclusive Open STEM education. We are joined as we always are by the incredible producers. They give
Dr. Timothy Eatman:them a say. So, this week's guest, I took some time to listen to this episode. This is
Bryan Dewsbery:the first time you took time to listen to an episode.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Oh really? Ignoring that for now, I will say that he is a very eloquent man.
Bryan Dewsbery:Tim Itman is a special a special guy, and and I really think you all will enjoy this week. And, Tim Itman, doctor Itman, the dean of the Honors Living Learning Community at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey. We cover a lot of ground. They have a very interesting model on how they recruit students, they support students, how they think about education and the role that an equity minded approach plays in just helping our democracy at large. He's he's a storyteller.
Bryan Dewsbery:He speaks from the heart. He speaks he speaks of the cuff, but he he he's very clear and and direct in in how he thinks about his work. And, you know, we were we were gonna record what we were about to record, and we're just doing a sound check. And this brother just as a just as a sound check, just spits off a verse of a dreamer world, the Langston Hughes poem, and and it was just so beautiful. We just captured that.
Bryan Dewsbery:We didn't capture every second of it, but we captured some of it. So so today, we'll just give you a special treat by starting off with a clip of his recitation, and then we'll get into the interview. So I'm looking forward to I'm looking forward to you having this experience. Welcome to knowledge on the.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:A world I dream where black or white, whatever race you be, will share the bounty of the earth and every man is free. Where wretchedness will hang its head and joy like a pearl attends the needs of all mankind. Such I dream my world.
Bryan Dewsbery:As you know by now, my style is that I'm not gonna, like, give you read off people's CV. Right? Because this is not Great. This is not that kind of thing where I need to give you their street cred to to make it, you know, so that you think they're worth hearing. You you will see in this hour why this brother is worth listening to.
Bryan Dewsbery:So I want Tim to tell the story. Tim, welcome.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Man, welcome is received and appreciated. I guess we were on a panel a few years ago, and I hope it's okay to say it. I just fell in love.
Bryan Dewsbery:I said, that's my brother. My my wife only listens to every other episode. So okay. Ah. Okay.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:No, man. It's it's really the resonance was powerful. Mhmm. I was talking about shrinking imagination, and I and I saw you shifting your seat. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. And our subsequent conversations during that time have been been great. Right. I have to tell you, I know it's a podcast, but I'm a little distracted by your sock game, brother. It's Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Well, we'll put a picture on the website. To do it.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:The sock game is tight, y'all. I gotta let you know
Bryan Dewsbery:what you're referring to. I wanna shout out my sister, Shelly Ann Dewsbury, who is the primary wardrobe designer Okay. For my sock game.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Well, you know, me send me her link. Thank you, man,
Bryan Dewsbery:for for you. Well, let let's actually start with that. And we're gonna get the Honors College in a second because I do want people to know, you know, what that college is about, why it means so much to the field of education. But but this that panel we were on together and and how we connected in that. I I just wanna tell you, you know, part of it for me is there's an element of this practice that I do.
Bryan Dewsbery:Like, you know, when I teach and you know, when I give speeches, run workshops that quite frankly, I pick and choose how to share with people what motivates that. Yeah. Right? And as you know, I come from the STEM world and and so much of it is is is is learning outcomes and evidence. And I'm not trying to be dismissive of that.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right? But but I I grew up in a Griot tradition. Right? I grew up in
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Just tell the stories about
Bryan Dewsbery:in a place where things come from inside you and you don't you don't need to feel compelled to explain what you're feeling. But you transmit that and you you trust that your audience will feel that. I I will confess without trying to be too critical of what I've seen out there that there are very few times when I've seen speakers bring that same energy. Alright? And that's what I felt when you saw me.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right? So so I really appreciate that you saw that. Tell us about the Honors College. Right? And and I know there's a lot to talk about.
Bryan Dewsbery:But Yeah. If let's say you had to give a two, three, four sentence summary of what your Honors College is about, why it why that approach matters, what would what would it be?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Well, brother, let me begin by, just, you know, sharing a bit of, a context. So Rutgers University, Newark has an honors enterprise. Uh-huh. We have an honors college
Bryan Dewsbery:Uh-huh.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:That was founded in the seventies. But the honors living learning community that I am the inaugural dean of is a part of the enterprise. It's a second entity.
Bryan Dewsbery:Yes.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And so, there are some, some differences like the Honors College is, not residential. Right. The Honors Living Learning Community Yes. Actually is a residential program. In fact, the merit scholarship that students receive, when they are, competitively accepted into the Honors Living Learning Community, is the the scholarship for room and board.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. Now some of my scholars are also in the Honors College.
Bryan Dewsbery:Okay.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right. So I just wanted to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That out.
Bryan Dewsbery:Make that distinction. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And we we collaborate deeply together. In fact, I was just looking at my phone. I just got a text from Anya Dillard, one of our students who's in the Honors College and the Honors Living Learning Community, reminding me that I need to respond to her about a meeting. Amazing social justice focused young young scholar. And and I I name her, and I and I I shout her out in this context because of the example that students like her provide for the vision.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. Yep. Mhmm. The idea of the Honors Living Learning Community is that if we want a strong democracy
Bryan Dewsbery:Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Then we need to use some of the most compelling tools and mechanisms in our box Mhmm. To underscore the importance of the kind of society we need. What does this mean? Well, students that wanna be positive change makers Right. Students that are serious about the life of the mind Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:But the life of community
Bryan Dewsbery:Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Deserve support. Right. Right. And, you know, as a social scientist, we we share this, you know, I mean, the variance that gets explained, you know, on, you know, from from from standardized tests really shows more about family wealth than anything else. Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right. And so is honors really honors as we have defined it? Well, we're trying to revolutionize honors. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:We're trying to cultivate talent. Mhmm. And we're trying to engage communities. And so in that process, we're saying, what will it take for us to reimagine something like Honors? And so we've seen, Drew, a a 80% increase of of Newark residents Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Who are enrolled at Rutgers University in Newark. And the Honors Living Learning Community has contributed to that. Okay. Because we're saying, hey, you got into this school, Duke and Michigan at Syracuse, but you want to stay in your community? You're first gen.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You're from immigrant roots. You know, you're a returning citizen. Mhmm. And you really are focused on, you know, making Newark a better place. We won't get behind you.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. So in short, that's kind of what the vision is. It came out of the strategic plan of our amazing chancellor who you know, Nancy Cantor. And, it was my honor to to follow her from Syracuse University to to begin, that work. I
Bryan Dewsbery:I will get into some of the unique processes in a second. But I wanna circle back to something you said about if we want a thriving democracy.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Because
Bryan Dewsbery:much of the rhetoric we hear today, as you know
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Around you know, when you hear when people hear whiz like social justice Yeah. Hear people people hear whiz like equity inclusion, is is is this narrative of, you know, reverse discrimination, this narrative of sort of picking one group. Right? And I I guess it's it's really hurt me in the sense that it's actually the country we care about. We we do this because we care about the country.
Bryan Dewsbery:We care about the democratic experiment getting better and better. Right?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:And to to an extent where I feel even equity practitioners don't fully understand that argument. Mhmm. And I'm wondering, is there a role for the way in which you articulated that? Is there a role to play in informing the national conversation on why social justice projects like these really matter?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I I would say so. I mean, I think we're not doing our job if we're not finding ourselves in, you know, spaces where we're making the case Mhmm. For these kinds of models. In fact, chancellor Cantor's invitation to me was, let's build a model. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? And so, you know this, doc. I've had the good fortune of of serving in, you know, several, you know, national positions. I guess, you know, they need to fill out the bottom roster or whatever. But it's been my blessing in that space to carry these sorts of messages.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:So when we were at AAC News Geppa conference, you know, as you recall, I talked about the, emphasis and vision of the, the Honors Living Learning Community. Now as chair of the board of the ACNU, it's, my pleasure to be able to be in a whole bunch of different spaces with a lot of institutional leaders. I think there are 14 sitting college presidents on our board. Okay.
Bryan Dewsbery:It's an
Dr. Timothy Eatman:honor to lead that board. But talking with them about their efforts around honors and how it gestures towards leading democracy and the sort of ameliorative change that we need. And and so, you know, I I spend probably more time than than I have or should carrying that message and trying to make a case for it. Mhmm. But I think the case really happens as people are able to see and feel the impact of the students.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? Mhmm. One of the reasons I resisted, doctor Deuceberry, the the the invitation to move into the deanship is because I like students too much. Mhmm. You know, I I mean, if you look at my calendar and you know my calendar.
Bryan Dewsbery:I know. I know you.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I have student meeting with students every day. An hour. I mean, good good time. Right. Because they deserve that, number one.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And because they have so much to teach us.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right. Right. It grounds you.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:It grounds you. They have so much to teach us about the thinking that we are using right now that may seem strategic. I'm almost a hundred, you know? Mhmm. But for for the the the current edge.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. You know, the current time. And so, you know, I think that unless we're we're doing that kind of case making work, for unless we're investing in the student in a real way where they know alright. I'm a say it and I may get ejected. Where they know you love them.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Bryan Dewsbery:I mean, I don't I don't you know, I just recently finished The Hooks is All About Love. That is not a
Dr. Timothy Eatman:word Every
Bryan Dewsbery:two years. That is not a word I shy away from, brother. It's not a word I shy
Dr. Timothy Eatman:away that every
Bryan Dewsbery:You know?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Man, what a powerful way of nuancing. Mhmm. You know, I even think about you know, you heard me say it as we opened up. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I fell in love with the brother. Right? No. No. Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. And I'm saying it in that Yeah. Hookian hooksian? I don't know. That hooksian way.
Bryan Dewsbery:I know what you mean. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. Yeah. And those relationships with the students. My heart is heavy right now, man. I got a a call New Year's Day, man.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:One of my scholars was in a car accident, man. I'm I'm I won't say her name, but she's has several surgeries. You know, they they're not sure that she's gonna have sight in one of her eyes. Damn. Yeah, man.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I'm on I'm on the phone with her and
Bryan Dewsbery:her mother. You you follow what
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I'm Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Yeah. I'm like, daughter, I love It's relationship.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Come on, man.
Bryan Dewsbery:You know, it's not it's not just so tell me tell us a little bit, because I think the audience would really understand this, better, not just from your own spirit, your own soul, and Yeah. What you bring to it, but you have a process.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Oh, no doubt.
Bryan Dewsbery:You have a process. Talk to me about that process. The how they come in, what they do when they're there. Like, how are you doing this redefining? Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:But really wanna people to hear that.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. Well said. Well, in order to appropriately address that, I have to name not only chancellor Nancy Nancy Cantor, but also her former executive vice chancellor Shirley Coyado. Mhmm. Who who you may know.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Shirley Collado, left, Rutgers Newark to then become president of Ithaca College. I think she was the first, Latin American woman to to lead Ithaca College. Then now she's president of a foundation. But Mhmm. She really helped to nuance and work through the the development of the design Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And got people on board prior to my engagement, like the imminently qualified associate dean Marta Eskalene, my right hand. You know? And Marta came out of the Posse Foundation and is a master facilitator and really was the architect. She had the head assistants, but was the architect of this interview process. So the question is, okay.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:If we're not looking at standardized tests to admit students, what is the process? Well, what Martha and the the the team of folks that she kind of led, you know, really pivots on some of the approaches out of the Posse Foundation, which is, you know, to bring groups together. So what we do next week, we'll have a large group interview, doc. Mhmm. And in the large group interview, there'll be a 50 students.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. And it's a three hour let me let me make sure it's clear that I'm saying three hours.
Bryan Dewsbery:Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:It's a three hour process. Mhmm. And it requires an army of evaluators. Mhmm. Because if you got a 50 students, you're not gonna be able to look at them all with, a staff of six like I have.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? Mhmm. So we recruit community partners. We recruit folks from the chancellor's office, faculty. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:There's a woman, brother, in dining services that will fight you if you don't let her be part of that evaluation process. Mhmm. Right? This idea of the community coming together to select these 80 students
Bryan Dewsbery:Right. That are going because even in who's doing the evaluation, a message is being sent that the whole community is you're you're coming into a broader network as opposed to what most people might think when they think honors is only honors people get to pick. Honors people get and then because you're only gonna be with honors people.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? Man, you know, you hit the nail on the head. And I had to tell you, one of the things that I, was struck by is the fact that our community, officers, our campus police, and and security officers participate as evaluators. Mhmm. And this will give me a chance to sneak in a little bit more about Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:How we're constituted. So, you know, we have cohorts of 80. Mhmm. 50 of them are coming right out of high school, 17, 18 year olds, But 30 of them are coming out of community colleges or transfer.
Bryan Dewsbery:Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And and among that group, we got, you know, parents. We got folks that have aged out of the We got folks that that are are you know, older
Bryan Dewsbery:Who incarcerated?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Returning citizens. Those who've overcome the school to prison pipeline as my mayor Rash Baraka says. Yes. Incarcerated. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I mean, I have, drew, I can call the names of at least seven, formerly incarcerated, students, returning citizens from, who've graduate we've graduated so far. Mhmm. At least three of which had thirty spent thirty years. Mhmm. But they wouldn't have went if there was a governor's niece.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right. Do you follow what I mean? Mhmm. Mhmm. The reason I kinda used that opportunity to talk about our composition is because sometimes we have security guards who serve as evaluators.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. But they know the stewards when they get in. And my scholars helped me to see that just the fact that they met the security guard in the interview. Mhmm. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Means that as they come into the campus space, right? It's not this, oh, okay. Yeah. We know. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Where you coming from, what your story is.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right. Right. Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? And to me, that's a kind of a beautiful thing. And you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the extent to which the community gets invited Right. To create something together.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I mean, the the third piece of that that mantra, revolutionizing honors, cultivating Right. Talent, engaging communities
Bryan Dewsbery:Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Is literally about that, not only with the evaluators, but with our community partners like in the Ironbound Community Corporation or the Newark Museum or the New York Public Library or the New Jersey Institute for Social Justice and on and on and on where we have significant engagement among our scholars who recognize that knowledge doesn't live at Rutgers Newark. Nope.
Bryan Dewsbery:Is some knowledge. True history credits of whatever. Come man. Man.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:There is some knowledge. Listen, I'm proud of the fact that my education has positioned me in a strong way to be able to rigorously understand how to organize and analyze data. Talk about the sock game, my sock game is not as good as yours, but my socks roll up and down when I can explain variance on the dependent variable. That's what they taught me at Illinois. But knowledge doesn't just live there.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And so even as we're doing a project on reparations right now, we're having dialogues with community partners throughout the city, community organizations, our students are engaged in facilitating some of those dialogues. And they go into the New Jersey Historical Society and hey, brother, they have assembled a database of a 72 formerly enslaved black Americans who were in Newark. People forget. New Jersey was the last northern slave holding state. We have a database of slavers and formerly enslaved ancestors.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:So what are we doing with that? We're saying, okay. You scholars and you've given me another invitation to to just celebrate the the the the the holistic approach here. Mhmm. Right?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. How do we humanize these people that we've discovered from these clips on runaway slaves. Right. Okay? And so we give it to the Newark Artists and they have developed skits and songs and illustrations and pictures to honor, right, and our students see this up close.
Bryan Dewsbery:It's like a modern day Negro spiritual. I don't wanna assume it's it's Negroes actually writing these songs, but you get my point. It that is the The word that comes to mind as you describe all of this is authentic.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yes, sir.
Bryan Dewsbery:And, you know, I remember I read an article, I think in New York Times about the process about the school and there was a, one of your students had commented that initially they were concerned that the usage with scholars was sort of gimmicky, right? To make them feel like, okay, we get it. If we call you a scholar, you might feel like a scholar. But they were saying, nah, man, like, once I'm in, like, this this is really family. Like, this is this is not what I thought school was.
Bryan Dewsbery:So you you have this really unique, you know, in-depth process to get them in. Once they're in, talk to me about this curriculum. I believe they have to have a social justice minor. Yeah. Talk to us about what happens as part of this LLC.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I just really quickly Martha Eskalene Engelbert Santana, apologies for not being able to give a more full description of of this interview process. I I just gestured to one half of it. Mhmm. The other half is a face to face interview. About 60% of our students who participate Okay.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:In that large group interview come back, and then it's a one to
Bryan Dewsbery:one. Okay.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Okay.
Bryan Dewsbery:I should let you finish. No. No. No. No.
Bryan Dewsbery:No.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I need to to be more concise Yeah. Yeah. Got you. Gotcha. But it's it's a it's a it's a big deal.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:It's a big process. And we have a rubric that, you know so what'll happen is, from the large group interview, we'll do some large some activities with everyone, but then we'll break the students up into groups of eight or 10. And you know what? Adam Bush, who I think was a recent, you know
Bryan Dewsbery:Gasior? Gasior?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. Yeah. He's a recent guest of yours, brings five of his staff members from Rhode Island
Bryan Dewsbery:Okay. To
Dr. Timothy Eatman:to to serve as evaluators.
Bryan Dewsbery:Okay. Okay.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? Because College Unbound and and Rutgers University, Newark's Honors Living Learning Community are really of the same spirit, same mind. And and, you know, that that, the rubric shared with our evaluators. I wish you would come and be an evaluator. Right?
Bryan Dewsbery:Hit me up.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. We do two evaluators, two, a set of eight, and then you can watch the students as they have conversations and you can hear their analyses. And you can find the ones that actually are pretty cool but probably wouldn't be good to live with. I'm just saying. Some people are that's not their jam.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You know what I'm saying? But also, you know, we have an activity where they build a community together and they have a budget. Right. And so do you include a store or do you include the empty lot? You know, and what's the discourses around it?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. So that's what happens in a large group interview shorthand. And then about 60% of those come back to the one to one. The one to one gives us a chance to just be sure that, you know, folks are college ready. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Because we're not bringing nobody in who's not college ready.
Bryan Dewsbery:Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:That that would be irresponsible. Right. Right? In fact, there have been some cases especially since we work so closely with you know, you know, community colleges that students will do well on our rubric but we say, no, you probably need to go to community college. And when you come out on the other side.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right. You follow what mean? Right. But that gives us a chance to ask em about their transcript. Hey, I noticed that you had you know, As and Bs year one in high school and in year two, you had these Bs and Cs, you know?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Oh, yeah. Yeah. My mother had cancer.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:We moved eight times. I'm not making this up.
Bryan Dewsbery:Yeah. Well Okay. Right. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right. And we moved
Bryan Dewsbery:eight times.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I was
Bryan Dewsbery:It does two things to me, at least from what I'm hearing is one, you know, a lot of it when people think interviews, they think of it as an individual experience. Right? And so what happens as a result of that is you're effectively branding yourself in competition with others. And the results of the process means that this particular brand won. So it privileges that model.
Bryan Dewsbery:The second thing is it, it, it lifts the value of the importance of discourse around around matters that are important.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right? And you know, the fact that that is kind of factoring in to what we expect of you. Oh, and the third thing that was gonna slip my mind is even when you say they're not college ready is not necessarily a bad thing. It's not it's not saying you're a bad person, you're not good enough.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You know? Exactly.
Bryan Dewsbery:It's saying like, you know, you you know, we're not ready for this fit right now.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Let's get you
Bryan Dewsbery:in let's talk to you about what I look like in a few years, you know, and that's a different way of you.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You're rejected. Right? Man, how many times have I gotten emails from students who said, I just wanna I might not get in. I just thank you for letting me tell my story. Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right. For receiving me not just a number as on a standardized test. Right. For seeing me. And here's the deal.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? We only get cohorts of 80. Again, fifty first year, seventeen, eighteen rows, 30 community college transfers, another college. But there are some seven, eight hundred other students who are part of that process, many of whom still come to Rutgers. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Now the admissions department knows them better because they participated in it. Right? Right. Listen. I'd see students on the street.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:One of the things I pride myself, even though I'm almost a hundred, I pride myself in learning.
Bryan Dewsbery:Just just so you'll know he's not almost
Dr. Timothy Eatman:a hundred.
Bryan Dewsbery:You look at his picture on the website.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:If they saw all his white hair.
Bryan Dewsbery:Nah. Nah. Nah. We're not doing that.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:It's just that I'm subconscious about it, brother. But, you know, I learn every one of my students' names, and I'm not trying to be cute. Right. Man, I'm not trying to be cute, man. I'm trying to let them know that I see them, man.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And I love them and I need them. And, you know, you go to college and some somebody can't call your name? Mhmm. Come on, man.
Bryan Dewsbery:Now listen. And and I just called their name because I I do notice that at least when you were seeing somebody's Spanish name, you were saying it Yes, sir. In the correct Come on, in unseen.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Well, my my queen is from Colombia anyway, but
Bryan Dewsbery:So you're you're gonna get checked on that no matter what. Right?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:But Right.
Bryan Dewsbery:No. But but I I I I this is this may be a small thing. But No. It actually does frustrate me in academic circles when I go to conferences, meetings, you know, I might butcher you and it was don't. Like, prag like, learn the name and and at least try to say it correctly, you know, before you say it publicly.
Bryan Dewsbery:And I I don't know. Maybe it's because I'm an immigrant too. And, you know, my first name is Brian, which is not that hard. But I it to me just says something to me that you took the time to call me correctly.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Man, she's not a HLOC scholar, but one of my scholar daughters out of Georgetown, know, told me a story about when she was othered that way. Mhmm. Mhmm. And somebody said to her, if I recall correctly, you know, that name is too hard. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Aranza is her name. You know?
Bryan Dewsbery:Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:She and and that name is
Bryan Dewsbery:too really?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. Are you that dumb? Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Forgive me. I'm trying
Bryan Dewsbery:to be No. No. I don't say it, man. We and I'll I know we're going down our rabbit hole here, but I think it's I
Dr. Timothy Eatman:think it's
Bryan Dewsbery:important because, you know, I was in a I remember a sophomore year chemistry class at Morhaus, and I had a Ethiopian friend. And Right. This all semester, and my other friends, like, his name is not that hard. It's not that hard.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:It's not that hard. You can do it. Five minutes.
Bryan Dewsbery:Like, really? If we are sophomores Yeah. Yeah. Could figure this out, you with the PhD, think, will be alright. You know?
Bryan Dewsbery:Yeah. So anyway, let me let me circle back to the process because I know that there's just so much beauty in in the community engagement and how that's centered Yeah. In what these students experience Yeah. As part of the LLC. Talk to us about that.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. Well, I'll I'll trail off from the the the the face to face interview. Right? Because, again, you know, it gives us a chance to ask them. What does your transcript tell us about you?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? And and that there's some fascinating stories that come out of that. Just just amazing. And it really helps situate us for preparing to receive them. Do you know what I mean?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. And and, the decisions on the final 80 per per year, they're hard decisions Mhmm. Because we would wanna we don't the last thing we wanna do is be like this, you know, kind of special thing Yeah. That it's it's exclusive even though my students are special. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? And and in fact, that's why I told you some of the students that go through the process but still end up on campus, I embrace them. Mhmm. Right? I'm like, I may be the dean of the Honors Living Learning Community, but I'm a professor of Rutgers University of Newark.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. So you're my student. Mhmm. Even though you get in a good HLOC program.
Bryan Dewsbery:Do you know what I mean?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. And it's interesting sometimes, and this is sad to say, but it's reality, there are students that come into the HLOC that really haven't matured to the level to really understand how to even receive that. Mhmm. So in some cases, I'm engaged more with students that are not not a lot. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. Who who are not in the HLLC formally and those that are have whatever it takes to to to take seriously. Mhmm. That we're there for them. It it's amazing that oftentimes, it's not until after students graduate that they get a real important sense of Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You know, why this really is something that they should take advantage of. And and everyone has their own developmental process. Mhmm. But, you know, those students go into a a three core course curriculum and a set of electives and a capstone which comprise 18 credits Mhmm. Which is the social justice minor.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. So being an HLOC scholar, Honors Living Learning Community scholar, means that you will take that 18 credit minor. Mhmm. The three core courses are, one, local citizenship in a global world Mhmm. Navigating spaces, places, and identities Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And voice citizenship and community engagement. And among those three courses, you get a survey of, you know, social justice meaning and definition, but not only theory, but examples. We bring in former students who have, you know, been involved in different sorts of work and community partners who are working on issues like reparations now. So we have a panel on that. We brought in folks from the forum on on education abroad to talk with them about the imports.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I got students right now in Italy. I think I have some in in Singapore, in India. I mean, you know, like Yeah. We're really trying to use those core courses as a way to launch them into an expansion of awareness of, you know, not only their own, you know, hang ups but their own competencies and their abilities to, you know, to develop their leadership skills and that kind of thing, you know. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Helping them to get more in tune with the place of Newark and Right. It's important. Right. Leaders that have come out of the community. I mean, there are many, many important leaders that have come out of of of of Newark and, you know, things like the the the rebellion, you know, you know, that sometimes people don't understand or not maybe
Bryan Dewsbery:not haven't remember.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Or don't remember or haven't been taught well. Right. So we use those three Or at You're right. Yeah. We use those three core courses to kinda set the table for them.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. And then man, they go and they translate that into student programs, student organizations, you know, they connect. You know, right now, the student government president and the vice president of Rutgers Newark are HLLC scholars. I mean, they just take over. You what I mean?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:But they have the kind of support and encouragement that that situates them as they're navigating their majors. And they may have majors in neuroscience or biology or criminal justice or sociology or whatever, but their minor degree and and some have two minors. You know? But but their responsibility is to navigate the 18 credits for HLLC Right. Which is a social justice minor.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Okay. I I I tried to be as concise as I could
Bryan Dewsbery:with that. I I get it. I mean, if we if we went into all the weeds, we'd be here for a few hours. But I I I think I think what you just said is pretty clear that what they're experiencing is is not what a lot of people think of when they think of a college curriculum. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right? And, you know, I guess for me, it's it's really the the community piece is so important. Yes. It is. A lot of times we bring students on campus and basically close them off from the physical environment around them, is which is unfortunate.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Can I can I slip one one Yeah?
Bryan Dewsbery:Yes. Because it's it's gonna
Dr. Timothy Eatman:it's gonna be today's Thursday or Friday?
Bryan Dewsbery:Thursday.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Alright. Tonight, we're gonna have something called the healing sounds of Newark. Uh-huh. Yeah. And this will give me a chance to talk a little bit about why if I define our curriculum, it's grounded in the pedagogies, the humanities, the arts.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. Our students have, over the years, cultivated a a flow is what they call it, where they bring spoken word poets.
Bryan Dewsbery:Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And, you know, hip hop artists and movement folks and, you know, you know, folks who do monologues and poetry Mhmm. From among the HLLC student body as well as the campus community as well as the newer community together at our jazz club on campus
Bryan Dewsbery:Alright. Alright.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Called Clemens Place in honor of Clement A. Price Uh-huh. The late the late luminary. Right. You know?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And it really is a jazz club in in Ruth Bader Ginsburg Hall on on Workers' Campus. Beautiful wood lined state of the art space for performance. And our students curate that space. There'll be one tonight. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And and they use that, those the arts and the humanities as a way to celebrate the holisticness of their experience. Right?
Bryan Dewsbery:Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You know, I have a daughter who's an MD, PhD candidate and and and I won't embarrass her at the school but as an undergrad, they they told her, you know, you can't do, you know, science and be a dance minor. And they didn't mean any harm because it's hard.
Bryan Dewsbery:Well, I I will be honest with you. If I can go back in time, I I would still do bio, biology at a graduate level and still do science. I do love science and generally love teaching. Yeah. But if I had known it was
Dr. Timothy Eatman:possible Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:I would have been an English major.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And she
Bryan Dewsbery:said I I I audience knows I went to Womar's College. I love my alumni, my my alma mater. The classes that moved me the
Dr. Timothy Eatman:most Right. I see.
Bryan Dewsbery:Were my English classes. Doctor. Justin Jackson. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Oh, man. Know these people.
Bryan Dewsbery:You know, reading Long Walk to Freedom. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:The Mandela. Yes, sir.
Bryan Dewsbery:Like and and in ways that because you talk about, you know, your program is being grounded in the humanities and the arts.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yes, sir.
Bryan Dewsbery:What what need to understand is you're not saying that they are majoring in the humanities and the arts. It's grounded in that. So whatever you major in Yeah. Right? The ability to look into your soul, the ability to feel, to express Come on, man.
Bryan Dewsbery:To sing, to speak, to dance,
Dr. Timothy Eatman:to move,
Bryan Dewsbery:to live in this world in in, unfettered, right? Like that is agnostic to whatever you leave with on that piece of paper. That's why she said it's okay to lean. It's okay to cannot
Dr. Timothy Eatman:breathe if I can't dance. Right? Right. And really serve them notice that look, you got to to receive receive me. And and I've just, know, again, both my daughters went to Spelman.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I'll just name the school. Mhmm. Spelman got all my money. You know what I'm saying? And I love the experience.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? And, you know, especially I'm a Howard grad. I did my master's work at Howard. Mhmm. You know, HBCUs especially have
Bryan Dewsbery:to be really careful about how do we, you
Dr. Timothy Eatman:know, invest in a way that will it will show the return, especially because they're under threat, and so there are good reasons for that.
Bryan Dewsbery:Do you
Dr. Timothy Eatman:know what I mean? Mhmm. But I'm telling you the fact that my daughters had that expelment experience where they were able to even though they were in the sciences, have classes with Beverly Guy, Sheffdahl, and, you know, all of the the amazing luminaries, Cynthia Spence and others that that are there is is is really powerful. But I name this, brother, because I think one of the violent things of American higher education is that we bracket out those aspects of our humanity and, you know, center in on this, you know, fetishization of of of Stuff. Of of stuff.
Bryan Dewsbery:Stuff is just I I mean,
Dr. Timothy Eatman:it's And we wonder why people are depressed. Do you
Bryan Dewsbery:follow what I'm saying? Well, let me let me use that to get into you a
Dr. Timothy Eatman:little bit.
Bryan Dewsbery:Uh-oh. Because
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I'm scared.
Bryan Dewsbery:This is no. No.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Don't be. Don't be. You know not.
Bryan Dewsbery:You know not to me. Alright. Because I guess this is where and I actually like that you use the word violence
Dr. Timothy Eatman:because It's violence, man.
Bryan Dewsbery:You know, I'm a first generation college student. And I you know, one of things with being first generation is, at least for me, you don't know that you were. You don't know it was a thing. You just right? You were you were in this space and, know, thank God tomorrow they gave me a free ride.
Bryan Dewsbery:So I knew I had four years to get my stuff to get it out, And one of the things my parents really gave to me as a special gift that I think I only really appreciated as an adult is this mantra of don't let everybody don't let anybody else make decisions
Dr. Timothy Eatman:with The
Bryan Dewsbery:decisions you make must align with your values. Mhmm. Alright? That's whether it's your major, your school, your job, your partner, whatever it is. So so I think that this notion of going into a class and somehow and I'm going to a class as a student or as a professor and just somehow shelving who Brian is at the door so I can fit into That's bananas.
Bryan Dewsbery:Whatever you are dictating I should fit into. It it just it rankled me always. Right? And I I again, this is not something I actually talk about a lot because I I maybe partly, I think it took years to fully articulate what I was feeling. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Also but also, I I didn't understand even why it was being done. Mhmm. Right? Like, why aren't you trying to find out what value I bring? Right?
Bryan Dewsbery:All spaces. Right? That can make this experience even that much more enriching. And so, you know, we use the word inclusive teaching and equity minded teaching and stuff. And I'm I'm fine with the terms, but honestly, when I think about it, it's deeper than that.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right? And and so I want you, if you don't mind, to tell me a little bit about about Tim and where in your journey did that that spirit speak to you in ways that is impacting and informing what you're doing right now?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Wow. Yeah. In order to do that, I have to be a little bit more vulnerable than sometimes I'm comfortable Mhmm. With. And and
Bryan Dewsbery:I'm okay with that. It it it is If you are.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. It is what it is. Mhmm. I'm becoming more comfortable in my own skin around those issues. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And I think, actually, the the leadership that I've been able to exercise with the with the I keep saying imagining America because I used to I know that was your part then before. Yeah. And it it was a significant place for me. It is still. So now headquartered at UC Davis, founded at Michigan, moved to Syracuse, focused on the, public scholarship and the humanities and the arts with Erica Kolarenes, our current director.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:But taught me that for all that I learned about, you know, positivistic research. Mhmm. And explaining the variance. That's that's just a skeleton, boss. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. And you need the skeleton. But what about the the the organs? And the the sindhu and the muscle. And you know, the the the qualitative analysis and the narrative.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:That's what brings that on.
Bryan Dewsbery:The blood that flows through.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:The blood. Mhmm. And so you know in our courses and I'm getting to your point about Tim but in our courses you know one of the things we emphasize is creativity. When you walk in our building, I can't wait for you to come visit our brand new state of the art $80,000,000 building. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:When you walk in the building, you will see a mural that started as an assignment from one of our students. Mhmm. I wish I could show it to your audience on the podcast.
Bryan Dewsbery:Send me send me a a image. I will send it to have, like, a curated website for each of these episodes. So I definitely want people to engage in that even if it's digital.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. But Vivian Peralta, who's now a PhD candidate at Texas A and M Mhmm. In biosciences, she man, she studies something about, you know, the insects and
Bryan Dewsbery:the reproduction.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I don't know. Don't know what she's studying.
Bryan Dewsbery:She probably told you a hundred times.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You can't She probably did. I even wrote the NIH she just got the NIH graduate student thing last year. Vivian Peralta, a sister from first gen, English as a second language, Dominican sister. I'll weep if I think too hard about how how beautiful she is. Spoken word artist.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? Visual artist. Her her print is right in the lobby of our building. And when you're when you're audience gets to see it, you'll you'll see that she draws herself. If you know her, you know it's her.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. Hair tied back, Latina sister. Hair tied back, and she's drawing the balance of justice, and it's imbalanced. Mhmm. And on the one side, you got money and cash.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. And the other side, you got community. Mhmm. And the people are trying to balance. Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Trying to figure out. And she got them climbing up her back. Mhmm. To get to the balance of justice. And Lady Justice is holding the balance of justice on the head of a man of color.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And on one side of the wall, she's got a brother who's got cuffs on his arm because he's trying to contribute to the balance balancing but in untoward ways that got him caught up in the system. On the other side of the wall, she's got a sister who's holding a book that's got history spelled backwards on it because there's a dwarf Uncle Sam whispering lies into the air of a lady justice who's weeping. This is bad peace, brother. This was from an assignment Mhmm. From a I think she's a biology major.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I forget what it was a science natural time. And I said, daughter. I call them scholar daughter, scholar son, scholar family for the non binary. I said, scholar daughter, I said, how long it take you to do this? She said, well, I don't know.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:She calculated probably probably about fifty hours. Damn. I said, well, how long did it take you to do the research paper for the she said, Dean, I I did that really in a couple nights. I said, daughter, you know you're an artist. I'm not an artist.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You wait till you see it. I said, you're not an artist? What are you talking about? Are you talking about? Brother, we have that print in the lobby and then we hired a muralist to be in conversation with it.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:So it's expanded. Right. Woo. Woo. Powerful stuff.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:But you see, things like that have helped me to believe in my own self. Now you and I share a number of things, and I don't know what you've shared with your audience. But I know the life of the spirit is important to you. And and and also, you know, education has has been been critical. I'm a preacher's son.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. And I'm a pianist.
Bryan Dewsbery:As am I.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Okay. Right.
Bryan Dewsbery:Not a piano. Well, actually, I trained for like ten or twelve years doing piano.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Okay.
Bryan Dewsbery:I stopped around 16. Okay. But I am a peaky as you.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Okay. I I I learned to perfect my and I'm I'm a I'm a I have an excellent ear. I can play anything that you you do you sing. Right? And I was really cultivated in that tradition of the of the black church Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Which really invites kind of organic creativity. I mean, even you a PK, so you know, even when it gets hot, that energy calls for the punctuation of the the voiced word with Right. And I won't go there.
Bryan Dewsbery:And it's it's commit well well, go there a tiny bit just because just because the communication piece of that.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right? And and again, maybe this is just my 44 year 44 old brain speaking in the sense that you get to a point in life where you can you can look back and understand
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Your life experience with a new life.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Oh, man. No doubt.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right? Growing up in the Baptist Church in Trinidad, I'm not thinking that, you know, the use of the term pastor and pastoral ministry Yeah. Being kind of a shepherd taking care of shit. Yeah. And this this, you know, being one with the community and community community communing through music and having the spirit move.
Bryan Dewsbery:Like, I would have never imagined that moment connection. Like, infecting the way I approach my classroom. Right? Yeah. But it did.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:It did. It did. It did. And brother, I have embraced in the last maybe decade the manifestations of those things that I learned right there in in that church. Right?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. How critical it is to be able to to to use I don't wanna I don't wanna diminish it by saying calling it performance because Mhmm. I don't I don't have a good word for. But it's like you're taking seriously what the content is and so that there's a reverence that you bring to the verve that you present as you share it. And you know what I'm saying.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:They call Bryant at any time, prepared or not, to be a part of it. Well this is how it was for me in music. I remember, know, I learned how to play the clarinet in public school and they said, oh, you could play music, Play the piano. And I'm like, that's a horn. Right.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. And you know what? They believed that I could play the piano, brother. You follow what I mean?
Bryan Dewsbery:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And listen. This past semester, I brought my keyboard into the classroom. You asked me any one of my students. And I sung to them a song that I I had written for for my youngest daughter, Tamela Grace. You know?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And, man, you know, like, they're like, wait a second. You're a dean? You're a PhD. Right?
Bryan Dewsbery:Well, I'm I'm but that is it right there. Right? Why and it's not I'm not criticizing the students, but this notion that you are x x and y, so therefore you can't be z. You you you can't you you can't lean into you can't bring a keyboard to
Dr. Timothy Eatman:you should
Bryan Dewsbery:be a dean. Right?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:That's right. I'm the dean. One of my favorite meetings at the end of the term was students who outed herself and she said, Dean, I'm a songwriter too. I said, Come to our office at 03:30. And we sat out there and she knows who I am.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:The three of us, we sat there and we played and you know, I mean I don't get to play often, know what I But it's those kinds of things that help me, Doctor. Deuceberry, reaffirm my own identity and the aspects of that identity that I have fought with with to to to keep at bay so that I could show up a certain way in the academy. Your listeners can't can't see me, but, you know, I've I've got dreadlocks. Right? And and you know, there's a whole story around why I even use those.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:So I I I embrace that that that that presentation.
Bryan Dewsbery:Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Because of the message that I wanna send about who I understand myself to be in the academy
Bryan Dewsbery:Tell me.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And the authenticity of that. Yes, sir.
Bryan Dewsbery:Tell me a little bit more about that fight.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Oh my god. So the problem is
Bryan Dewsbery:And the the reason why I'm asking
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:It's not it's not really kinda to put you on the spot, per se, but I know and you know that a lot of our students are still fighting.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:There are a lot of our colleagues still fighting.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:And it's not to make any one of us a hero or anything, but to the extent that there's value in in that story being told and somebody hearing that and saying, oh, this is not just me. And this is more importantly a fight I either can win or a fight I don't have to have.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Or I can decide when I'm gonna have it.
Bryan Dewsbery:Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Because I had to be honest, man. You know? I mean, I made some strategic decisions about when I was gonna do what.
Bryan Dewsbery:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You know? And when you when when your sense of self is is hanging in the balance and you also have mouths to feed.
Bryan Dewsbery:Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You know? Why? You you have model look. My but she'll she'll be mad at me. But my young my youngest daughter has a PhD program in in molecular engineering.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Like, it's the mother's side. You you understand what I'm saying? And, you know, she wants to be a professor. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:But she has watched me Mhmm. Traverse, you know, as I imagine your children are. Mhmm. Those decisions around, you know, you know how our colleagues are, man. I mean, I've had folk tell me to earn tenure here.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You got to neglect your family.
Bryan Dewsbery:Mhmm. Mhmm. To
Dr. Timothy Eatman:my to my black face. To my black face.
Bryan Dewsbery:Damn.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:No. No. Dead up. And I'm like, word? I'm not gonna be doing that.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? And, you know, it it I think it requires as you have pointed to a certain kind of temerity that says and for me, it's consistent with my faith practice. Right. I'm a be who I am. Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And I'm gonna express myself in the way that I do even though I know some folks look at me when I'm playing and singing and say, oh, there's the performing Negro. Which puts me at war with myself because that's my love language. And I gotta eclipse what I am.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You know? I mean, my mentor Julie Ellison just retired down at University of Michigan, and I went to her retirement party maybe two months ago and at Museum of Modern Art, very beautiful place lined with marble and very distinguished colleagues all around. Excuse me. I sang her a song that I wrote for her right there at University of Michigan called the word lady. It was a little tough to do.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right? Because I know people like, oh, that's beneath us. Right. Right. But guess what?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I love that lady, that mentor, that white lady. I wanted to honor her out of my soul. Mhmm. Mhmm. Right?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And so I wrote that song, The Word Lady. My chancellor, I wrote her a song when she left Syracuse. Like that's who I am, boss. Right, right. And so working with my students really is helping me to do more of Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Like embracing who I am and taking me back to those roots that you you mentioned of. Yeah. And of. And and I and I think that that's a process that I'm going to need to be a part of my whole experience because we we are we've made some gains, man, but we we we we've got so far to go. Doctor.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Julesberry, I'm a tell you a story, man, that you can feel as a parent, man. Mhmm. I was talking to my younger daughter, man, a couple of months ago about an experience she had right in graduate school. You know? She's, you know, at this, you know, very elite place, and she walks out of the bathroom, and a lady walks in and screams, grabs the stuff.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:My daughter looked like she about 12 years old.
Bryan Dewsbery:We'll make sure and leave that commenting.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:But This place What's is a place that's guarded with police. You can't just walk up in this place. Yeah. But all that woman was doing was giving indication of what her grandmother taught her about black and brown people. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:But the conversation that I had with my daughter began with papa. Do I make the place scary? Now she got the challenge of the rigor of her deep, you know Mhmm. Natural science work. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And
Bryan Dewsbery:Right. Right? She has an extra curriculum.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:She has an extra curriculum. But part of what I can do Mhmm. As a papa, as a mentor Mhmm. Is make sure that I live out who I am without bracketing out those pieces that keep me sane.
Bryan Dewsbery:Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Right?
Bryan Dewsbery:Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And so now she's, you know, doing more of her she runs and she bakes. You know what I mean?
Bryan Dewsbery:Like Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. The artistic stuff to to sort of keep us whole and connected, like, which is antithetical to so many of the messages that we've received from others in the academy. I hope I didn't go on to
Bryan Dewsbery:No. No. No.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:That's that's As a parent, you know, you understand what those stuff feels like
Bryan Dewsbery:being a conversation. My my kids, you know, not well, they're nine and a half, six and a half. So, you know, we have a journey with them and I I you know, they're they're much younger than yours, but I think of those issues no less than you.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:It's coming, brother. And is he here already?
Bryan Dewsbery:Partly because of my own experience, you know, as an immigrant, as somebody of African descent, know, we'd be here all day if I had you know, we had to start reading stories. Right? Uncouth. You know, just back a little bit to your know, leaning into how you communicate.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right? And this I will confess, it's something I struggle with too a little bit in well, maybe not a little bit actually. In that, I I want people when they hear the message to be moved by it, to to to drop their defenses and lean into the spirit and soul of what is being conveyed in the space. And an understanding that through in that conveyance, I'm bringing both the soul, also a tangible scholarly intellectual Right? And there is always a little bit of a fear that, you know oh, let me okay.
Bryan Dewsbery:I'll be inspired by you. I'm gonna tell you this that I haven't shared with much people that I was in I was given a talk once and it was one of those where like you talk and then there's another keynote like right after you. So you do like twenty five
Dr. Timothy Eatman:minutes on. And
Bryan Dewsbery:the person who came right after me, a white guy, he opened by saying Mhmm. You know, Brian is here to give you the entertainment. I'm here to give you data.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:I don't seem like.
Bryan Dewsbery:And so and those are the things where you have to be you have to kind of sit and I tell people and I think unless you experience it, you don't understand what this is like where you have to you have about ten seconds to decide. You
Dr. Timothy Eatman:gotta do it now.
Bryan Dewsbery:How are you gonna how are you gonna you're gonna you're gonna act a fool. Right? You you you know, you're gonna put on your I don't think that was an appropriate like, you you have to sort of figure it out. And and I'm partly saying this for people who maybe look at yourself, look at us, and I'll be the first to say I come with a ton of privilege. I've had a
Dr. Timothy Eatman:good career.
Bryan Dewsbery:I'm grateful. Yeah. Let's not act like it's a hundred. Let's not act like all this stuff is in the past. Let's not act that people don't just walk around with stuff that's said.
Bryan Dewsbery:And so, scared that energy that you take trying to navigate your desire to lean into your communication language, but also the fear of how that will be received is energy that could be put to something else. Right? Like how much more beautiful, how much more beauty can we be experiencing if we're not having to make these Yeah.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. It's a real deal. And it's not minor.
Bryan Dewsbery:I I remember, you know, the AAC and U talk. Well, I know you've given several talks, the one the one where we were on the panel together Yeah. Mhmm. And, you know, you had incorporated a Negro spiritual
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Into remind me which one it was.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:That was Lift Every Voice and Sing.
Bryan Dewsbery:Okay. Okay. I thought it was
Dr. Timothy Eatman:that Johnson. Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:And I I remember okay. Yes. And I should have remembered that because what I remember
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm.
Bryan Dewsbery:I believe you used you sang the first
Dr. Timothy Eatman:verse? Sure.
Bryan Dewsbery:Sorry. This a previous
Dr. Timothy Eatman:every voice and sing till earth in heaven ring, ring with the harmonies of liberty. Yeah. Our rejoicing rise high as the listening's cuss. Let it resound loud as the Hey, We could start soon. We could
Bryan Dewsbery:start. I'm not as good
Dr. Timothy Eatman:as you, man. Just I'm just trying keep you all low.
Bryan Dewsbery:Well well, you know what I was thinking of? I remember, I think it was Taylor Brown.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:It was a little scary to do that, man, at that
Bryan Dewsbery:Well, I know. I I felt it. I felt it. I'm like, I'm
Dr. Timothy Eatman:doing it anyway.
Bryan Dewsbery:Well, okay. Let me make you feel better. Alright. After listening to you, I did a I was invited to do a talk out on the West Coast and kind of went back and forth on what they wanted. Told them, look, I wanna do talk about my personal journey.
Bryan Dewsbery:That was their request. But I wanna do it in a way that is more of a storytelling and I I began it by singing a Negro spiritual Oh, wow. Why am I blanking? Oh, hold on. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Just
Dr. Timothy Eatman:a little while longer. Mhmm.
Bryan Dewsbery:No. Not that one. This is Mary done lost your track. Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:There's something swinging and you're holding back. Keep your head on the drum and
Dr. Timothy Eatman:hold on. That would have Yeah. Nice.
Bryan Dewsbery:I know what yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:Beautiful. It's a beautiful one. Anyway, I just wanted to say, like, you you inspired.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Come on, honor me with
Bryan Dewsbery:that, man. Back to lift every voice and
Dr. Timothy Eatman:sing.
Bryan Dewsbery:Yes, sir. You know, a lot of people a lot of people don't know the third verse.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:God weary mean, third verse. God of our silent ears.
Bryan Dewsbery:It is for me, and and this is as an, you know, immigrant. Right? So I learned this song. I'll be honest. I learned this song when I got to Morehouse.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yes, sir.
Bryan Dewsbery:That was a song that that is communicated
Dr. Timothy Eatman:so far along the way. I was by thy might led us into the light.
Bryan Dewsbery:Actually, let me back up. No. No. No. I'm gonna interrupt myself.
Bryan Dewsbery:That is the third verse. It's the second
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Stony the road we tried.
Bryan Dewsbery:Stony road we Bitch the chastity rock. To me, that
Dr. Timothy Eatman:was the verse. Alright.
Bryan Dewsbery:That was the verse that really really sort of juxtaposed like what we really coming from. Right? Like why we need to be lifting and
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And this is good today, brother.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right? This is what nourish me. That was the you know, and I'm hearing this as a as a Mohawk student and and and, know, you know, when you talk about bitterly chastening rod, I mean, that that's an understatement. Right? And and to to really kind of unpack, you know, what that stony road looks like.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:But also days when hope unborn had died. Woo. Right? With weary feet.
Bryan Dewsbery:Man. Yeah. I guess my takeaway when I think back on that stanza is still trotting that road. Trotting that road. And knowing how to recognize those stones, what to do with that.
Bryan Dewsbery:In in a in a Trotting up role. A progressive way.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Recognizing what to do with them stones. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbery:You got what the LLC That's gonna
Dr. Timothy Eatman:haunt me all week, man.
Bryan Dewsbery:I I hope it haunts you for life. Yeah. Well, in in a way not in a way. In in in reality, this is how what I feel the LLC is doing. Is it is treading the road.
Bryan Dewsbery:Come on, man. It is showing students what it means to tread the road. Not to see the road as as, know,
Dr. Timothy Eatman:you know,
Bryan Dewsbery:we're in a terrible world that we No. No. No. Part part of being a democracy
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Come on, man.
Bryan Dewsbery:Is identifying the stones. Of being
Dr. Timothy Eatman:what to do with them.
Bryan Dewsbery:Right? Part of know what to do with them and how
Dr. Timothy Eatman:to Man, you don't need me
Bryan Dewsbery:on this podcast. I invited you for a reason.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:That's beautiful, man.
Bryan Dewsbery:Alright. Tim, let me me let you sort of here with this one. What what would you say what do you think like sort of the kinda next big steps for your program? I know it's a big question. You have a ton of stuff going on, but you sort of look out there in the higher ed landscape.
Bryan Dewsbery:You know what we're going through right now. You know what the narrative is. You know what, you know, politically how we you know, what's been said about what we're actually doing. We know that's not what we're doing, but what do you see what what is the next step for us and for your project?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Yeah. Well, you and I have talked about it, and Mhmm. I'm delighted that we're conspiring to, you know, think creatively about what it means to build the evidentiary base. Mhmm. Right?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:And so we've got a gang of outcomes, and we don't have the research enterprise yet in motion that is needed. So Mhmm. In my mind, in order to, create the kind of of model that's portable that people can use, we need to have those outcomes. And and one of the things I loved about the conversation that you and I had is that it's not just about the the numbers outcomes that Variant's explaining that makes my socks roll up and down, but it's about going into the C Wright Mills space. Remember, C Wright Mills reminds us in the sociological imagination that, you know, if if we just keep sort of doing the stuff that was done and we're not thinking about how new approaches need new methodologies, then all we are are just sort of widget makers, technicians.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:No, no, no, no, no, no. To me, I'll go back to my AAC and Ukeppetot, to me that's shrinking imagination. How do we be expansive about understanding the ways of manifesting the outcomes, the research, right, that will really give testament to what's happening. And a lot of it is nuanced and a lot of it needs a whole range of different ways of thinking about how to conduct research. And so research is important.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:We always need resources. Right. And we're blessed, man. The Prudential Foundation gave us an endowment of $10,000,000
Bryan Dewsbery:Nice.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:To support Newark Students. And so we have Prudential Scholars. We got now about $3,000,000 from the the Mellon Foundation, Andrew Mellon Foundation for a pathway in the humanities. How do we get more graduate students? And we
Bryan Dewsbery:even
Dr. Timothy Eatman:have science students that are curious about the humanities and trying to figure out so we get
Bryan Dewsbery:them They're just doing a gen ed credit just to
Dr. Timothy Eatman:get it to the You follow what I'm saying? Yeah. But, you know, I'm committed to as my next steps to getting that research enterprise tight and continuing the work of raising the resources so that we can scale up and and and and invite more young people to experience what we think is pathway to a prophetic imagining about what is possible in their experiences.
Bryan Dewsbery:It was a pleasure imagining with you brother.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Thanks for joining me. Imagining and singing, man. Well, alright. Man, listen.
Bryan Dewsbery:We had to man. We'll do this in the recording studio.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:You know? Oh, man. Thank you, brother. Man, You know, I I I do not accept invitations without asking myself, you know, and this is my faith practice. What is supposed to happen here?
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Do you know
Bryan Dewsbery:what I mean? Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:What am I supposed to receive? What am I supposed to give? Mhmm. And I feel like that happened here, brother. I forgot for a minute that there were mics in front of us.
Bryan Dewsbery:Yeah. That that's I wanted to tell a story with people. I wanna tell a story with you. And as we know, you know, we're both Creo informed. Right?
Bryan Dewsbery:Sometimes that story needs the energy to be pulled out of each
Dr. Timothy Eatman:other. I shake it.
Bryan Dewsbery:And I think we did that. So thank you.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Means a lot, man. Still waiting on that link on that sock game though. Alright, man. Alright, brother.
Bryan Dewsbery:Knowledge Unbound is brought to you by the RIOS Institute for Racially Just Inclusive Open STEM Education. We are generously funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. Special thanks to my always eternal producer Mr Sege Vamasai, Computing Engineering Class of 2025. Thank you to Doctor. Tim Eatman, Dean of the Honors Living Learning Community at Rutgers University Newark, New Jersey.
Bryan Dewsbery:Thanks for sharing your story. Thanks to you my listeners for tuning in every week. Feel free to subscribe to our Spotify channel. We are also on iHeartRadio where you can find us on our website at knowledgeunbound.transistor.fm. I am so moved by my conversation with Doctor.
Bryan Dewsbery:Itman. I hope you enjoyed the ways in which we shared our griot together, how we told our stories and maybe more importantly that the bigger point is education and the way it can move people and change things is something that doesn't have to be relegated to a classroom or a course or a campus. It is with us every day. And that is the mindset that we hope can help us rethink the relationship between an equity based education and a thriving democracy. I hope you thrive this week and I hope to see you next week.
Bryan Dewsbery:As always be excellent to each other.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:The idea of the Honors Living Learning Community is that if we want a strong democracy, then we need to use some of the most compelling, tools and mechanisms in our box Mhmm. To, underscore the importance of the kind of society we need. Is honors really honors as we have defined it? Well, we're trying to revolutionize honors. Mhmm.
Dr. Timothy Eatman:Mhmm. We're trying to cultivate talent. And we're trying to engage communities. And so in that process, we're saying, what will it take for us to reimagine something like Honors?