Episode 1: Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton - On bravery, choices and activism in STEM
Hello, everyone, and welcome. Welcome to knowledge unbound. My name is Bryan Dewsbury, and I am your host of a podcast called knowledge unbound. Knowledge unbound is brought to you by the Rios Institute for Racially Just Inclusive Open STEM Education. We are generously funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation.
Bryan Dewsbury:My producer, mister Segef Amasai, computer engineering major class of 02/2025. Segef, what's How's it going, Brian? How's it going? How's it going, Brian? I feel like if you are using your DJ name and and my audience, my producer is also a DJ.
Bryan Dewsbury:He goes by DDX. If you're using your DJ voice I am DDX. Alright. Alright. Alright.
Bryan Dewsbury:My apologies. But if you were in DDX mode, you would have been a lot more decisive in your response. Well, that is very true. Okay. Hey.
Bryan Dewsbury:Welcome, Segev. Segev is a wonderful producer for all of these episodes. This is a series that we will be in conversation, in community, really, with people who just think provocatively, think beautifully, think progressively about what education and science education can be. I am honored to welcome so many diverse and inspirational guests to the studio. We'll be recording most of our our episodes from the science education and society program at Florida International University, and we will, you know, we will just ask people their story.
Bryan Dewsbury:Part of it is their personal journey, part of it is their projects, but all of which we can learn from in ways that are unique, that are nuanced to make education just a much more beautiful thing. Today, it is my great pleasure to start this series off with just a good friend of mine and somebody I know who's thought deeply and provocatively about what science education can be. She is the director of the RIOS Institute that is from which this podcast is coming. Doctor. Carrie D.
Bryan Dewsbury:S. Eaton is also an associate professor of computer science and math at Bates College in Maine. And we just had a wonderful time because, know, who and I have gone back and forth on the vision for this podcast and and, you know, what opportunity we have to bring this conversation to the national audience. And and I think it's it's fitting to begin this 10 episode series with a conversation with her because I think her journey and her thinking on not just this podcast, but these whole issues around science education is is really important. So I really hope you enjoyed.
Bryan Dewsbury:So Carrie, you you've always been an interesting collaborator to me because, you know, I've had a pleasure of working with a lot of people on social justice related things in STEM education. And I guess I don't want to kind of take up too much airtime here, but I feel like you get that so much of this is nuance, it's hard to explain and for this to work, for the social justice outcomes we're looking for in STEM education. We have to be willing to sort of be brave and bring up things and go into spaces that quite frankly historically has been frowned upon for the kind of profession we have.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Get your attention between your
Bryan Dewsbury:activist self and and the the confluence of disciplines that you represent. You know, start wherever you want with that.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:But Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:Ask that sort of question.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Which question do go for first? Let me let me start with that tension because sometimes I've talked to folks or recounted how there were times in where being in STEM meant I should erase the activist self. So we've talked about this before. The activism that I've been involved with was something you're involved with just by being. Right?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And for me, I saw it when my Spanish speaking church in Providence that my dad went to was involved with helping new immigrants come to the area and all of the issues they were dealing with. And my dad was like, I'm here for you because people were here for me when I came to The US. But I never connected those to my STEM identity. They were very separate from me. Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And and even though I maintained activism even through high school, through college, etcetera. But when I was in graduate school, it was made clear I had to choose who I was going to be portrayed as, and it should be STEM and not activism.
Bryan Dewsbury:Well, let me ask you just real quick without derailing you too much. But did something happen that forced that choice? Or did somebody kind of look at you and see this set of things you're doing and say, yo, you need to kind of get over here?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Yeah. So I think there was a particular moment where I was having someone review my CV for me. And this was a CV that I was using to apply for a scholarship.
Bryan Dewsbury:Okay.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And I was a, maybe, first year grad student.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And I had applied for the scholarship when I first started, but I didn't get it. So I went you know, I was getting a little more coaching this time. So when she was reviewing and best intentions, of course. Right? This is how it always happens.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:When she was reviewing it, she saw, oh, you'd been involved in a gay straight alliance. Maybe we should take that off your CV. Right? And so that's I think that's, like, the best moment I can tell where
Bryan Dewsbury:I'm like Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I'm supposed to be separate about this. Like right? Like, it's literally not supposed to be on my CV. There's always been moments of discordance where I think, like, I put some activist energy into, say, changing the climate for teaching in my department or things like that. So I I I didn't stop.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Just changed what kind of activism Right. I was involved even even though that was heretical for our one department Yeah. At least it wasn't putting something about queerness on my CV. Right? And so you know, especially in the South.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Right? Right. And so I feel like a lot of my journey over the last decade has, like, been reintegrating what were already parts of me.
Bryan Dewsbury:So so is is that reintegration is is the success of that reintegration now a function of where you are professionally and that you're tenured and that is, you know, there's cache to your name. There's I mean, I don't want to make it about that. Right? But the reality is some of these that integration is riskier at different points. And I just don't know how much that factored into the the the intensity of the reintegration process, if I could call it that.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I think there were two things going on simultaneously. So where I was prior was a non tenure institution. Mhmm. So I I didn't have tenure. Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And but I was getting some national appreciation, should you say. I guess this is one way of putting it. I was getting noticed.
Bryan Dewsbury:I'd like to thank
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:the academy. I I felt more confident in if my current place doesn't like what I'm doing Yeah. I can move, and that's okay. Yeah. So I it's not quite the same as the security of getting tenure.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:It's more like a different kind of job security that comes from self confidence.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I don't know how to describe that in any other way.
Bryan Dewsbury:No. I I think it makes sense, and I and I feel like I I also heard something else in your in your comment about bringing activist energy to, say, teaching climate in your department. And and I think about Malcolm X's much used but often misquoted quote by any means necessary and and maybe an interrogation of that saying, you have to sort of figure out which means are necessary. So it doesn't mean that it's just any means, The necessary part is the qualifier for what the means are and where it goes. And it sounded like, okay, do you pick up the battle to fight for everything goes on your CV versus right now this is where the fires need to be put out or addressed?
Bryan Dewsbury:Is that kind of navigation an essential part of your activism? Like kind of figuring out where need your strengths? Where where is most politically salient at the time, when when to give trouble, when to give good trouble, like, I it's I know it's your name. Like, how does I'm I'm asking this question on behalf of people who are
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:hearing you
Bryan Dewsbury:And wanna make these decisions. Right? But maybe need a little bit of a playbook.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Well, I'm gonna take a play from your book, which is knowing yourself, doing that, like, reflection on yourself.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:The other thing I will say is is I'm a boundary spanner because I've been involved in in multiple worlds. Because, you know, I I have a a white mother and a Hispanic father. Mhmm. Because, you know, I, you know, identify as queer, but I'm in a heterosexual marriage with kids. And this kind of boundary spanning, it has kind of meant that I could camouflage, but also if I felt like I needed to.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:But I think that sort of there was some self consciousness around whether I was dark enough to be an advocate for the Latino community or because my Spanish wasn't good enough. Or I had this privilege of a heterosexual marriage, so could I really, like, claim being queer? Right? Like so I think there's that actually happened that happened at, like, a later point, which was I I think when I was teaching at Unity, my very first job, one of the really interesting things that happened was being at a predominantly white institution, where I was for many years the only faculty of color, I was the touch tone for the students of color, for the Latino students. And I was involved as a club advisor for American Sign Language Club and a few other kinds of, I guess you could say diversity initiatives.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:All of a sudden, it didn't matter that I was in whatever marriage or had whatever level of melatonin.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:It mattered that I was making connections with students and that we were making a difference in each other's lives. And then hearing that come back to me, keeping in touch with those students over the years and having them say, It was so important for you to be there. And then that boosted my confidence that I gave myself permission to do the
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:work. Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And then around the same time, for me, the the critical event was the Trump election
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And the intensity of hatred against immigrants going on there. And then as soon as the election happened, Maine is under ICE jurisdiction in its entirety because of its border with the ocean as well as Canada. Mhmm. And seeing ICE vehicles drive down my road the very first day that Trump was officially in office. Yeah.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And I started getting much more vocal at that point in my own institution Mhmm. About how a lot of the folks who were graduating in environmental law enforcement were border control and getting hired there because there aren't enough wildlife jobs in Northern Maine to employ all the students. There's where the money was. And how it was our ethical obligation to start thinking about these things.
Bryan Dewsbury:And
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I don't know. I just found that confluence of internal building and external happening, I was in the right place to start being more vocal.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. Man, a lot a lot to unpack. Well, no, in a good way. Right? Because I I think maybe to push back a little bit on my own playbook question or the use of the word playbook in that context.
Bryan Dewsbury:What seemed to matter more was you were in a mental space where you looked around you and you saw that what the moment needed was more than just being an educator. Right? Or or let me let me put it
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:a different way.
Bryan Dewsbury:You're going. Let me put it a different way. More than just teaching content.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Mhmm.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right? You you were looking at an election. You're looking at the the sentiment and the and the the climate of of your community, of your state, and and thinking, like, it's not good enough just to teach people to differentiate the questions. Right? Like and and and that that is not a playbook thing.
Bryan Dewsbury:That's like a mindset. Right? And I'm I'm wondering if could sort of unpack that a little So
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:how did I come to that mindset? I I think there are two things. I think one is a number of student over interactions over the years, you know, where they've you know, maybe also reflecting on my own, like, what really made a difference in me choosing my career path? And yes, it was my relationships with certain individuals that just kept encouraging me. But I think it was more amplified when I went to a liberal arts college.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Because at that predominantly undergraduate institution, small liberal arts college, they really emphasized the relationship with students. And I do admit that it was for someone especially out of mathematics, we're very sort of more individual. We're all about the pristine content.
Bryan Dewsbury:Was The purity of
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:the discipline. Yeah. And I had always been at a huge flagship universities. So I didn't have that experience exactly. So I had to figure out what that meant.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I think that was something I have gotten much better at over the years as a teacher. I look back at how I initially started. And yeah, I really do think that being at that small liberal arts college was something that really changed my mindset about what's the role of the relationship with the student.
Bryan Dewsbury:It reminds me a little bit sometimes when I hear these conversations happen in mixed audiences, and by mixed, I mean, k 12 and higher ed. And I do see sometimes a collective eye roll from the K-twelve people because they're like
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:know, you've had that figured out
Bryan Dewsbury:for years. Don't do really, like, well, do
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:you do your job then? Right? Like,
Bryan Dewsbury:and it's just amazing in higher ed, we about this as like,
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:oh my goodness, wow, relationships is a thing?
Bryan Dewsbury:You could, you know. And I get it, I get how this system is set up that makes it hard for people to see that and how we train, but just as a point of humor, Right?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Yes. No. And even when we have these pedagogy courses that are part of GTA training programs or certificate teaching programs in college teaching, usually we focus on content pedagogy or something like that. Not focusing on the importance of relationship making or we're reading literature on education and stereotype threat. But we're not talking about relationships.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:That's not part of the typical one semester college pedagogy course either. I think we still have a lot to integrate on that conversation that K-twelve already knows on. Somehow, I don't know, we think at 18 your brain switches and you don't need relationships anymore. I don't know. I look back and think it's hilarious, the prior version of me thought it was completely logical.
Bryan Dewsbury:He's like, I'm good. I just want content now. Not eighteen years of that. Enough.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I'm sure that's exactly what I
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:thought when I was 18.
Bryan Dewsbury:So let's pivot just a little bit to RIOS, RIOS, just Inclusive Open Science Institute, generously funded by the Hewlett Foundation, which you have the privilege of being a PI. Thanks for the great work you do on that front. Where do you see Rios playing a role in a lot of the things that you just described? I mean, I know they're personal. Right?
Bryan Dewsbury:But you've brought that ethos. You've brought that spirit, that energy, that value system to this institute. Tell me what sort of your hopes are, not just for this podcast, but for all the projects that we involve ourselves in.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Yeah, I think the sort of bigger picture to me, the kind of stuff that we've just talked about, I think could be framed as humanizing STEM, but I wanna take it a step further, which is people are STEM. STEM and people are not two separate things. They are a ecosystem together. People create STEM culture and science, and that you know, is it's all part of everything.
Bryan Dewsbury:That in turn impacts people and the Right.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Right. It's not just and yeah. Oh, content education requires relationships. Like, it is it is relational in its core. So I think one of the exciting thing about Rios is putting ourselves in places where we're getting other folks to think about that earlier in their career or showing everyone's viewpoint on this and creating a new storyline about what STEM is or could be.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:It's about changing the culture strategically but also using open as a tool for advocacy and for counternarrating and for doing something about the current culture, whether that's opening up the black box, about having these conversations out in the open,
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:of the things that we're saying.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Also, we have other initiatives that are going on in a lot of places where I'll just take some of the ones that I'm involved with because those are the ones I know the best. But one sort of being involved on the next generation of instructional practices guide for undergraduate mathematics curriculum. Okay, so diversity and equity is a thing at the end. So what if it's also throughout? What if the humanizing is throughout?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:What if that's really part of it? Again, I know we're talking. We're here this week at Bates for the Gordon Research Conference, which is all about rethinking vision and change, revisioning vision and change, creating that new vision for biology education and what it means to think about that as human created, human driven, for humans, etc. So I think it's about showcasing the conversations, it's also about thinking strategically about where is this field going to go, nurturing it, pushing it, helping other leaders come in, spreading the word. I'm I'm just excited about that level of
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:work.
Bryan Dewsbury:So I'm gonna circle back to Riyos in a second because you brought up a new vision for change. And I want you to tell me in two to three sentences max.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Okay. I'll try.
Bryan Dewsbury:What would you say is your personal new vision for change?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Yeah. I mean, I'll go back to what I just said before.
Bryan Dewsbury:That's one sentence.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:More can be great.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:STEM is people.
Bryan Dewsbury:Uh-huh. Oh, Jesus. That's a two to three, man. Said, know, I I I I I'm with you. Just thanks for tuning in.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I was trying to be as precise
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:as possible. I got there. Yeah. No. STEM is people.
Bryan Dewsbury:Okay.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And for which people?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Right?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Follow-up on that too, right?
Bryan Dewsbury:Well, think I read into your use of the with people that the inclusive is assumed or should be. Yeah. Right? That we shouldn't have to go about, you know, defining it and always for you too. It's for you too.
Bryan Dewsbury:Like, that shouldn't be an extra message I have to I have to send. If we're doing it right, then everybody understands that it's for everybody. And so I want to segue back a little bit to the O in Rios.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Mhmm.
Bryan Dewsbury:And you know our good friend and colleague, Doctor. Karen Kanglios, he's now here. She's the director of EveryLearn Everywhere, wonderful human and just done a ton of work on open science, open pedagogy, OER. And I've said, you know, we've talked offline several times, and I've said one of the things that have really excited me about RIOS is the potential around open to get at broader questions of democracy and access and not just democracy, but participatory democracy, right? That this notion that we are all part of knowledge generation, knowledge creation, knowledge curation.
Bryan Dewsbury:And maybe I just wanna hear your thoughts on what what how Open lands with you.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Yeah. I had this wonderful conversation with a colleague of mine, doctor Anna Wald. We were she's she was here at Bates as a visiting assistant professor, and we were chatting. We have some common interests in in sort of digital activism. She was saying as she teaches some of her courses, it's a lot of critique because she comes from gender and sexuality studies and from humanities, and sometimes critiquing a lot of things about current society.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:But then some students lose hope because there is, you know, such crap in the world. Like, I I had to, like, work not to use a swear word. Such crap in the world.
Bryan Dewsbury:The podcast, if you see, doesn't care.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And and so, you know, I was like, you know, I I really feel like one thing I can add to to this, you know, new imagination building is that I well, besides my eternal optimism, you know, this agency base you know, building with students, building agency to to make a difference, but then with with what what do you do? And I feel like open as resistance
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Has been a really, really important tool, at least for me throughout my life. So what does it mean to think about open as active resistance to the system?
Bryan Dewsbury:Tell me more about that.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:So I think this goes on so many levels. But, you know, let's let's talk talk about it from the economics perspective. Right?
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:The power that's concentrated in knowledge, who has access to that knowledge, you know, the kind of knowledge that's at one university versus the kind of knowledge that folks have access to in another. So that's controlled by universities and it's controlled by textbook publishers and so there's power, money, resources all tied up. When we think about just the strict open education, making your curriculum open, making conversations about how you teach and what you teach open, That's a form of resistance against those power systems that separate us into the haves and have nots. But then you look at, you know, I teach a lot now about sort of the digital human interface. And, you know, we know that, you know, as we critique things like AI open in terms of social media and transparency requirements for AI and open sourceness and access to tools, all of that is direct open as resistance to conversations about how technology is shaping things moving forward.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Mhmm. And then let let's take it another, like, sort of other personal level. These conversations open.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Talking about what happened to somebody on your your CV. Mhmm. I follow this this this other great podcast called mathematically uncensored.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And I just love that they're open talking about these conversations in the open. And, you know, it could be, you know, telling folks how this made you feel and just opening it up for other people to see. I I think of that as just a different version of opening the black box on a mathematical model or a computational model. It's like opening it up and here's what what went into that whole process. Yeah.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:You know, opening up and talking about what you get as a salary and how you got that salary. Like, the things that are supposed to be taboo. Right?
Bryan Dewsbury:This is actually really interesting because no. It it is. It it because oh my god. I feel like we could talk for hours here because you are getting into a philosophical space of open being beyond I think what I mentioned to prompt the question was open in a very political social structure context. You seem to be describing open as a philosophy and a value system.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I'm always going bigger, Brian.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I know
Bryan Dewsbury:that, I know that. So in that context, it goes beyond just how it applies to good governance and social structures. It goes into how we live our lives and create relationships, right? And it pushes past things like proprietary and this need to kind of commodify and become an economic good and quantity and things like that. So then that then raises a whole bunch of other interesting follow-up questions.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right? But and I guess maybe just selfishly from the real perspective, excites me that there's all these other things to other rabbit holes to run down. The more we lean in as a group to the o, you know, name.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Yeah. Hey. We just had, you know, great conversations earlier about, you know, moving from me to us. Yeah. Right?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Yeah. And I think, like, unfortunately, there is an I in Rio. So I don't know. Maybe I should have been a you've gone.
Bryan Dewsbury:I don't You're one of those used joke. There's no I in Rio, but there's an I in Rio. Because it spoiled your one joke, we need to go ahead and change our whole name. Is that
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:what you're trying to But
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I you know, I think yeah. I think that's, like, part of the the culture of of of not just STEM, but broadly. Rethinking. When we start thinking about open, start thinking about really democratizing all kinds of knowledge and all systems and processes. Then that's what we're talking about.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:We're talking about thinking about us as a community and helping each other Mhmm. Instead of how do I help myself. Yeah. And and that's a mindset shift, especially considering how our economy Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:How it runs.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Built and run.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right. So so let me let me kinda circle back to a point you brought up earlier that that stuck with me about post 2016 on Border Patrol. And and this, again, selfishly, one of the reasons why I I I feel a professional connection with you that I think is a little rare because unprompted you bring out things that I think about and I don't hear in other places. And one of those things is I think about 01/26/2022. I'm blanking on the year, but when I say Jan six, you know exactly what I mean.
Bryan Dewsbury:And I've often compared that to in the 1920s when they were lynchings and who attended those lynchings. Right? And who attended January 6? And I think part of my job is to to kind of think about broadly social function. How do we get this right?
Bryan Dewsbury:How do we how do we continue this democratic experiment in a way that everybody's a part of it and can live long, peaceful, happy lives? Like, that's sort of a guiding question of my professional life. And I I find that in situations like January 6, there's a a reactivity. Right? There's a reaction of bad people, put them on trial, let's move on kind of thing.
Bryan Dewsbury:And not enough of, well, what lessons can we learn from understanding what led to this so that we hope to not repeat this kind of thing in the future if we are to work as a country. Right? And one of the things that stick with me is we give those people degrees. Right? We gave them high GPAs in some cases and said Summa Cum Laude, you go and start a business, go and be a lawyer, go and be X, Y and Z.
Bryan Dewsbury:And you know, we give a lot of other people degrees too, but there's a feeling of responsibility, I feel, where I worry that especially in STEM, we kind of assume almost that because you are a chem major, all the other values associated with being a good noble community driven participant of a society just automatically kind of comes with that and we don't have to be explicit about those values at the undergraduate level in particular. Know I went on kind of a while here, I just want to make the point that, know, part of, you know, to the extent that we are John Dewey acolyte here and that education is built to help prepare people for democratic participation, you know, what are we doing in STEM classrooms and STEM education research, etcetera, to be intentional about that? And so you bringing up seeking border patrol and knowing that you have students who are going to go into that, like so the mentality they go into that with matters. Right?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And by and and I think there there are two things going on. So one, in that particular case, we were educating them for environmental professions, thinking, first of all Right. That that that had no they didn't need this kind of ethics training because they were just going to be, I don't know, out tagging bear or something like that. Right? And so there there is that also is a misconception.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Mhmm. Because now, you know, there's been especially in sort of hashtag black in STEM and other places, there's been a lot of folks talking about they can't go bird watching because somebody's gonna say, why are you here on your own as a black man? Like, you know? And so now we we know that that's well, some of us know that that is false. Right?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And then there is this sort of idea of, like, what are you what do you think you're preparing students for versus what are you actually preparing students for?
Bryan Dewsbury:Right. Right.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And coming from teaching mathematics, I think this is something that we as a community in mathematics have been struggling with on and off because teaching something that counts as a math requirement so you can get your checkmark on general education is algebra teaching them to really think as critical citizens moving out in the world. Right? Right. So so their thinkers like, you know, what do we think we we're doing versus what we what we are? And I think one of the the coolest talks that I heard also someone responding to the 2016 was Carl Bergstrom talking about their calling bullshit curriculum.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And that that was like, you know, how are we educating future voters
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Right. You
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:know, to to to, like, realize whether the thing they got shared on Facebook is totally false or not. Like Right. You know, they can vote for whatever as long as they don't believe
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:BS information.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Right? Like like, you know, I mean, I'm kind of taking the politic you know, the partisan out. But still, at the end of the day, are we really preparing folks? I don't think those skills are totally different than what we say we're doing in science with critical thinking and all these other things. I think they're very related.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:But, yeah, also acknowledging, hey. You know, this isn't just about the outside, what you're gonna see on the ballot. Right. This also affects your discipline. And that's like a whole another conversation.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:People are like, oh, but this is ecology. This doesn't have anything to do with humans. I'm like, wait a minute. Like, you know, like,
Bryan Dewsbury:that's Not a single thing.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Not a single thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:Nothing nothing.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Yeah. Yeah. So I I think I'm pretty excited about one of it's not gonna solve all problems, but one of the things that Bates is doing structurally is now we are requiring that students take two courses that address power, privilege, place, race, racism as graduation requirements. And one of them must be in your major discipline. And I think I think there's it's an acknowledgment
Bryan Dewsbury:Right.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:That this is not a separate. So I worry a lot about transference. You did your ethics requirement. Right. You did your, you know, critical thinking requirement.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Right. But that doesn't have anything to do with science.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:You know?
Bryan Dewsbury:And I like that last piece. Yeah. No. I'm a %. Yeah.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I mean, we've been saying this in math forever. Like, you know, yeah. Yeah. I finished my math requirement, but what does have to do with, you know, my major in political science or something? Right?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:You know? So so I think just even making that a requirement yes. Of course, we hope it changes, you know, what we're graduating students with. But at the core, it's telling it's making a statement that, yes, we believe that discussions on power and privilege and race deserve to be in every major.
Bryan Dewsbury:And
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:just because you think you're gonna send someone off to tag bears doesn't mean they don't need a conversation.
Bryan Dewsbury:I'll just ask one quick last question on debates point. Can you comment if you know anything on if there is something in place to assess especially the major class one and the reason why I ask is one of the things I worry about with all these really good initiatives is that it comes from the heart is well meaning I agree with it. Right? But then five, six years down the road, nobody can really have a you know, somebody can come online and say, you are just indoctrinating a bunch of students. Like, nobody you know, you shouldn't have to do that.
Bryan Dewsbury:And we don't have a response other than we thought it was a good idea. And I'm just wondering if there's something in place that if there are goals associated with having that class in the major, is this some assessment in place to figure out, you know, if that was valuable and why?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:So there is a committee that's charged with overall looking at the requirement in those classes itself. And I think right now they're more concerned with what goes in because, you know, before they address what goes out. Though, I I tell you, I'm around here looking at posters at the GRC, looking at Mhmm. You know, possible survey instruments and other kinds of things that I can bring back to my institution. You know?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Because I think I think we want to know that we're making a difference. You know? I you know, I think there is some resistance from some foot oh, man. We're gonna assess the heck out of it. You know?
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:That's why I didn't go into k 12 education. But, yeah, as the eternal optimist, don't don't you wanna know if you're making a difference?
Bryan Dewsbury:Well, it's funny because GRC is at your institution, so you don't have to bring anything back. You you just need to
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:lock the doors. Like, it'll only take a minute. With permission. It'll only take
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I will share, you know, the contact information. Painless.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:This was you signed a waiver. You signed a waiver. It is what it is. Alright.
Bryan Dewsbury:Hey, Carrie. Thanks so much.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Yeah. Thanks, Brian.
Bryan Dewsbury:Knowledge Unbound is brought to you by the RIOS Institute for a Racially Just Inclusive Open STEM education. We are generously funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. You can find out more about the podcast at our website click on the bio in our link. There you will find more about Doctor. Eaton's work at Bates College and a transcript of today's episode as well as several of Doctor.
Bryan Dewsbury:Eaton's interests and other projects related to the podcast. You'll also find a link to the Riyos Institute where you can peruse some of our other projects, the working groups, learning communities, and other projects that we've been involved in. Our producer today is Mr. Segeb Amasai, computer engineering major, Florida International University, class of 2025. I'd like to thank my guest, Doctor.
Bryan Dewsbury:Cara Diaz Eaton for spending some time with us, sharing her vision. I am always moved and marveled when I get a chance to be in conversation with people like Carrie because I guess part of it is commiseration, part of it is you know, people see beyond what this could be, right? People don't they don't stay satisfied, don't just accept that because the system tells you to do x y z that there isn't more to do and willing to maybe even put themselves at some professional risk to make it happen. So to the extent that that's a reminder for me and a reminder for you, my listener, to to to be likewise brave, I I hope it was a good listen. As you go into the week, I hope you look forward to our next guest or next episode.
Bryan Dewsbury:And, all equity based, inclusive, social justice education is is trying to imagine a world where all of us are part of each other's in group. So my name is Brian Duesbury. Until the next episode, please be excellent to each other.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I think the the sort of bigger picture to me, the the kind of stuff that we've just talked about, I think could be framed as, like, humanizing STEM, but I wanna, like, I wanna take it a step further, which is, like, people are STEM.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:Like, STEM and people are not two separate things. Mhmm. Are a eco system together. I think there are two things. I think one is a number of student interactions over the years, you know, where they've, you know, maybe also reflecting on my own, like what really made a difference in me choosing my career path.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:And yes, it was with certain individuals that, you know, just kept encouraging me. I had I had always been at a huge, you know, flagship universities. So I didn't have that experience exactly. So I had to figure out what that meant. I think that was something I have gotten much better at over the years as a teacher.
Dr. Carrie Diaz Eaton:I look back at, like, you know, how I initially started. And, yeah, I really do think that being at that small liberal arts college was something that really changed my mindset about what's the role of the relationship with the student.