Bryan Dewsbury: 00:05

Welcome, everyone. Welcome to another wonderful episode of knowledge unbound. You you know the drill at this point. Right? We we this is this this episode sorry.

Bryan Dewsbury: 00:17

This podcast is not about me. It's about the guests. And all we do is try to create a platform and environment, an opportunity to really hear the beautiful stories of people who are thinking transformative about education. How they think about that, how those thoughts turn into action, and what those actions have for us in terms of lessons. We are graciously brought to you by the Rios Institute for Racially Just Inclusive Open STEM Education.

Bryan Dewsbury: 00:45

We are funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, my producer, the wonderful, the senior, mister Segev Amesai. Sege, what's up?

Segev Amasay: 00:54

Have you got any more adjectives for me, brother?

Bryan Dewsbury: 00:57

You want me to come I can come up with something. Don't don't don't tempt me.

Segev Amasay: 01:02

The floor is yours, brother.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:03

Are you are you okay. I know we have, like, several months until you leave, but are you in, like, senior writers mode?

Segev Amasay: 01:10

No. Not really.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:11

No? Okay. I could probably feel

Segev Amasay: 01:12

it coming a little bit, though.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:14

Well, we we we're glad to have you here. We'll be happy for you, but we'll be sad to see you leave. Today's guest is an author, a former high school teacher, somebody who's been in the world of secondary education for quite some time. And I've been very fascinated with just the different ways in which she kinda thinks about it and how she's able to express that both in terms of feedback that she offers people that she consults with, but also the way she writes and thinks about it in a very kinda humorous way. And without giving away the cake too much, I'll leave it there.

Bryan Dewsbury: 01:50

And I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Her name is Roxanna Eldon Valmar. She's the author of a book called See Me After Class and another book called Adequate Yearly Progress. Hope you enjoyed. Roxanna Eldon Valmar, welcome to Knowledge Unbound.

Roxanna Elden: 02:06

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Bryan Dewsbury: 02:08

Say say thank you at the end. Right? We'll see how this goes, and then I'll see if you wanna thank me or not. No. It'll be fine.

Bryan Dewsbury: 02:16

So I I don't like to do the whole and I know I've said this probably every single episode. Right? I I want people to introduce themselves because to me, that's an opportunity for them to tell their own story. So why don't you tell our audience who you are, what your journey has been, what led to the books that you've written, and anything else you wanna share?

Roxanna Elden: 02:34

Sure. Can I ask you one follow-up question before I Absolutely? Do that intro, which is I would love to know who you consider the the prototype of the audience who might be listening to this because I wanna make sure that I share information that will be most interesting and relevant to them.

Bryan Dewsbury: 02:53

You know, I'll answer your question, but I also don't want you to put yourself in a position where you feel you have to filter your message in or or shape your message for a particular audience. Because one of the things I've loved about the knowledge unbound audience, and I noticed because people have shared it with us, is they come to this podcast hoping to be opened up. Right? They come to this podcast hoping to be exposed to stories and ways of thinking about education and all forms of education that they hadn't thought of before they clicked play. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury: 03:27

So, you know, you will talk about things that, you know, a lot of people who listen to this podcast are in higher ed, but there are a lot of secondary and primary ed people. So I I wanna I want this story to be driven by you and your experience and maybe not your anticipation of who might want to hear what. Sure. So go for it.

Roxanna Elden: 03:45

So educators looking for looking for new ways to think about education.

Bryan Dewsbury: 03:51

I take it.

Roxanna Elden: 03:52

And alright. So I was a teacher, public school teacher for eleven years. During that time, my sister started teaching, and I found that I was using my experience, not pretty recent experience as a first year teacher to coach her through her first year of teaching.

Bryan Dewsbury: 04:18

So what what were you teaching?

Roxanna Elden: 04:20

I started out teaching fourth grade English as a second language in Houston. Mhmm. And then for the majority of my career, I was a high school English teacher. Mhmm. Which is interestingly what I always pictured being since I was in high school, I would sit in my high school English classes and just think

Bryan Dewsbury: 04:38

Just

Roxanna Elden: 04:39

Like, I can do this better.

Bryan Dewsbury: 04:41

Well, okay. That's not to be true. I was gonna drill

Roxanna Elden: 04:43

on that one. Not to be true. Okay. At least for many years, it took me a long time to even get to the basic level of what I thought I saw my teachers doing wrong.

Bryan Dewsbury: 04:56

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 04:58

And I was so disappointed in the teacher that I saw myself being at the beginning. Mhmm. That I just felt like I people talk about teaching having a steep learning curve.

Bryan Dewsbury: 05:10

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 05:12

But that did not capture what I needed captured about my first year. Mhmm.

Bryan Dewsbury: 05:17

Let's go back to high school a second. And without trying to call out your high school English teacher here, but what is it that at, I don't know, 16, I guess, 15 that you experienced that you're like, this can be this had there had to be some better than this. What was the feeling that you had that then turned that into, look, you know, when I get an opportunity, I would like to give this a shot.

Roxanna Elden: 05:41

That that's an interesting question because I actually had some very good high school English teachers.

Bryan Dewsbury: 05:48

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 05:52

Yeah. I I I had some very good high school English teachers, and I I I I'm now I'm thinking maybe I'm making it it sound like I was doubting teachers that

Bryan Dewsbury: 06:04

I I didn't want to kinda trap you with that. I was more focused on your feeling. You know?

Roxanna Elden: 06:09

I think I I I mean, I like anyone, I had a mix of teachers.

Bryan Dewsbury: 06:13

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 06:13

I mean, I certainly had terrible teachers. I certainly had wonderful teachers, and I had a lot of teachers that were in the very Mhmm. Large bell curve

Bryan Dewsbury: 06:22

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 06:22

Area in the middle.

Bryan Dewsbury: 06:23

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 06:24

And what I think I what I think I just had inside me as a high school student was I used to write it in a journal. Mhmm. And I would just imagine myself in front of a class of high school students. And so I would come up with these ideas. I was writing lesson plan ideas.

Bryan Dewsbury: 06:40

Really?

Roxanna Elden: 06:41

I was writing, you know, philosophies of teaching. Just just I and I'm sure I would be pretty embarrassed if I went back and read them because it's still the writing of a high school student. Mhmm. But I was always sitting in class as as a future teacher and as a future teacher of teenagers. It so happened that I started my career as a fourth grade teacher and learned a lot, but certainly that was not where I hoped to end up.

Roxanna Elden: 07:12

But it just there's so many little micro skills that go into teaching that you don't even realize are things that people have developed through trial and error.

Bryan Dewsbury: 07:21

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 07:22

That where you think you're jumping off point is is not where you're jumping off point is as a new teacher.

Bryan Dewsbury: 07:29

Yeah. Well and this is why when you ask me about who my audience is Mhmm. I I I push back and say, look. No. No.

Bryan Dewsbury: 07:35

I don't want us to do that. Because even though, yes, a lot of people who listen to this podcast are college professors. That point you just made about so much of this is trial and error. Mhmm. So much of this is, you you know, there are things about our learning curve that many things don't quite capture.

Bryan Dewsbury: 07:54

This is true for, I would argue, almost any classroom, including ones that are intro bio and upper level physics or whatever.

Roxanna Elden: 08:02

Yeah. Yeah. So lot of the people I work with are also professors at the college level. I think

Bryan Dewsbury: 08:07

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 08:07

There's certain skills that go all the way through

Bryan Dewsbury: 08:10

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 08:11

From pre k to being a professor.

Bryan Dewsbury: 08:13

Mhmm. But So in the years you used a phrase that said, it took you many years Mhmm. To even get to a point where you felt you were struggling at the same level as your own teachers may have been struggling. Talk us through a little bit of what those years was like. Like, what were the lessons that came back to you?

Bryan Dewsbury: 08:33

What did you felt like you weren't as good as you could be at? And perhaps, what were the things that put you in a position to reflect and realize, hey. I need to I need to get past whatever it is I can't get past?

Roxanna Elden: 08:46

I think that what threw me off as a teacher learning to

Bryan Dewsbury: 08:52

teach Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 08:55

Is that there is there's a lot of teacher advice out there.

Bryan Dewsbury: 09:00

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 09:00

A lot of teacher advice out there. A lot of it is focused on how to elevate your teaching from pretty good to great. But there's a level of teaching that is below pretty good

Bryan Dewsbury: 09:19

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 09:19

And is even below just okay that is not even acknowledged

Bryan Dewsbury: 09:29

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 09:29

Because immediately there's this reflexive, but there are kids involved.

Bryan Dewsbury: 09:35

Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 09:35

Kids are important. Every child deserves a great teacher, you guys. Yeah. We cannot talk about

Bryan Dewsbury: 09:41

Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 09:41

You know, losing your temper. Yeah. We cannot talk about saying something to a kid that you know you shouldn't have said.

Bryan Dewsbury: 09:49

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 09:50

We cannot talk about falling so behind on grades that there is not any possible way that you can catch up with a real level of feedback before report card time.

Bryan Dewsbury: 10:02

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 10:03

So that's just this, like, abyss of information Mhmm. Where not only is the information not out there because nobody wants to admit that they were there. Mhmm. But, also, you can't necessarily reach out to the people who are supposed to help you elevate your teaching from pretty good to excellent Yeah. For those things.

Roxanna Elden: 10:26

Because the the thing that would

Bryan Dewsbury: 10:28

But you know you're pretty good yet.

Roxanna Elden: 10:29

Right? Right. Right. I mean, the idea that you are in there feeling like you are doing your kids a disservice. Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 10:35

Like, they would be better off with any other adult in front of them.

Bryan Dewsbury: 10:38

Well, not any. Right? Not any. Yeah. I know.

Bryan Dewsbury: 10:41

I know what you see. I know what you see.

Roxanna Elden: 10:42

Another adult that is interchangeable with you. And that you feel like you may even be taking up the space that someone who would be better for these kids would be taking up. Mhmm. There's nothing to help you get from there

Bryan Dewsbury: 10:58

Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 10:58

To pretty good. So that's the area that I felt like I needed to fill in because there's a lot and listen. There are some teachers who will never be good. Mhmm. They don't care if they're good, or they just don't like kids, or they just aren't aren't into this.

Bryan Dewsbury: 11:16

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 11:17

But I think that those teachers are not seeking out my type of advice at all. Mhmm. I just the the ideal person, know, to to answer kinda my own question, the person that I picture in my audience is someone who, wherever they are as a teacher, they may not necessarily be a new teacher, but where wherever they are as a teacher, they wanna be better because they think that their students deserve the best that they can give. Mhmm. And also because they like being good at things and want to elevate their game as much as they can, but they need someone to give them honest practical advice that starts from where they're at and doesn't automatically reflectively go into this, like, can we think about can we think about what it's like to be a child and how much you know, these kids are going through a lot at home.

Bryan Dewsbury: 12:08

It's like, yeah, know the kids are going

Roxanna Elden: 12:10

through a lot at home, now they're going through a lot in my classroom because I am not up to this yet. You know? So Yeah.

Bryan Dewsbury: 12:18

So let me ask you this, though, because so many things you described, like just to take an example being so behind on grading that you can't give good feedback right some of it could be there are things the individual teacher might need to get better at But some of it could be that their teacher is working in a school slash a system that is asking so much of them that there's almost no way they can give the kind of feedback that that's good feedback. Right? So I guess what I'm getting at is I I'm I'm assuming that some of the issues that leaves them in this kind of abyss that you described is systemic. Right? And this is not to take anything away from the teacher in terms of what they can and can't do, but I just want to know if you could speak a little bit to how do you think about that piece of it?

Bryan Dewsbury: 13:09

Like, what about the the conditions? Right? That leaves them way below that pretty good stage.

Roxanna Elden: 13:16

That is a very good question.

Bryan Dewsbury: 13:18

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 13:19

And that observation is 100% on point. And I I can give a few examples of what you're talking about. So I think some of the systemic stuff

Bryan Dewsbury: 13:31

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 13:33

That matches up with the teacher training stuff is that there are things that no one can admit Mhmm. When it comes to working with students because, again, there are kids involved, and the kids deserve the very best, which I mean, you know, who can argue with that state?

Bryan Dewsbury: 13:51

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 13:51

Right. Okay. But then what you have is you have certain things where people say we're setting this expectation for teachers because this is what students deserve. But what students deserve is in a way limitless and undefined. There is no upper level to what every student deserves, really, as far as a teacher caring about them, as far

Bryan Dewsbury: 14:15

as a

Roxanna Elden: 14:16

teacher, you know, helping them improve, and as far as a teacher both keeping discipline in the class, but also being understanding of individual students.

Bryan Dewsbury: 14:29

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 14:30

So there are certain areas where no guidance is given except for something that rounds off to students deserve the very best.

Bryan Dewsbury: 14:42

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 14:42

So nobody really tells you this is how many grades you should have Mhmm. In your grade book each week, and this is the level of feedback that should be involved. Why? Because if they did say that Mhmm. Then that opens it up for teachers to do the math, which I have done the math on grading.

Bryan Dewsbury: 15:01

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 15:01

Which as a high school English teacher, whenever I assigned an essay, I got a 150 of those essays back. And if I spent five minutes Wait.

Bryan Dewsbury: 15:10

Hold up. A 150?

Roxanna Elden: 15:12

Well, you have, let's say, five to six classes with with approximately 25 to 30 students.

Bryan Dewsbury: 15:20

I may not have realized that you taught that many classes.

Roxanna Elden: 15:24

I I would say that's pretty typical. Five to six periods with anywhere from 20 to 30.

Bryan Dewsbury: 15:32

Yeah. Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 15:32

Yeah. And a 150 is kind of an easy number to work with. So 150 and I I don't remember these exact numbers.

Bryan Dewsbury: 15:39

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 15:39

150 times five minutes ends up being something like

Bryan Dewsbury: 15:47

You're gonna have to do the math on my podcast. Right? Please don't

Roxanna Elden: 15:51

make me do the math unless you're gonna fully cut it out. But it it's something like it's it's an amount of hours. Let's just say

Bryan Dewsbury: 15:58

this. Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 15:59

It's an amount of hours that if you really said a teacher should spend this many hours grading each essay that a high school group of high schoolers turns in. Anybody would say that number is ridiculous. Mhmm. So now you're making the teacher secretly make the decision to spend less than fifth sorry. Now you're making the teacher rewind.

Roxanna Elden: 16:24

Now you're making the teacher make a secret decision

Bryan Dewsbury: 16:28

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 16:29

To spend less than five minutes per assignment. Mhmm. And one way to do that is to eyeball it and rush through.

Bryan Dewsbury: 16:37

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 16:39

Another way to do that is to come up with certain strategies, and this is one of the things I have an entire course

Bryan Dewsbury: 16:45

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 16:45

That I work with teachers working back from that number.

Bryan Dewsbury: 16:48

Right. Right.

Roxanna Elden: 16:49

And realizing that number is unacceptable, I help teachers come up with strategies to do the best possible that they can within the teacher time and effort that's required because you don't just give one assignment per week.

Bryan Dewsbury: 17:05

Right. Right. Yeah. We're gonna talk about our course in a second. I know I'll see some more detail detail on it.

Bryan Dewsbury: 17:11

But it it unfortunately, little bit. Part of it is trying to figure out how best you can make lemonade. Right? Like, how how best you can do right by these students who deserve the best, right? But with the tools that you have.

Bryan Dewsbury: 17:28

And then just for context, you taught in Houston fourth grade in a high needs district if I'm remembering correctly and then and then in high school was Hialeah High School in Hialeah Florida which is in Greater Miami Dade County. What was that tenth grade?

Roxanna Elden: 17:47

I taught all the different grades of high school, but the majority was ninth and tenth grade.

Bryan Dewsbury: 17:51

Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'll take you back to that where you said, okay. You took several years to kind of get to a point where you're realizing all of the hidden curriculum associated with developing these skills.

Bryan Dewsbury: 18:04

And and then your sister, you know, becomes a teacher as well. And so maybe there's a little bit of advice being bequeathed based on experience. That's what then led to see me after class.

Roxanna Elden: 18:20

Yes. So I was giving my Mhmm. My sister this advice, this off the record advice that I couldn't get anyone to give to me. And by the way, there are many families of educators.

Bryan Dewsbury: 18:31

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 18:32

And one of the things that I've found without any data to back this up, but I've worked with teachers for two decades. People whose parents were teachers Mhmm. Are so much better equipped when they first start their first teaching job.

Bryan Dewsbury: 18:50

Mhmm. Well, it's like first generation college students.

Roxanna Elden: 18:52

Yes. Right? I'm sure.

Bryan Dewsbury: 18:53

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You come in with that capital.

Roxanna Elden: 18:56

For sure. Mhmm. And I think it's just because someone has to you have to have someone close enough to you

Bryan Dewsbury: 19:02

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 19:03

That they are willing to risk telling you things about those private decisions that they've made Mhmm. That nobody is willing to say Yeah. To teachers as a group. So I was willing to do that for my sister. Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 19:21

And then I just found, you know, my sister had a few roommates. I was talking to some of them about that. And then I just realized there's, you know I started giving presentations at my own high school to the incoming teachers. And as I widen the circle Yeah. To start, you know, I started doing new teacher orientation speeches for the whole county eventually.

Bryan Dewsbury: 19:44

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 19:45

It was basically the same seed of the desire to say, okay. There is a way to talk about this stuff Mhmm. That doesn't let teachers off the hook. Right. For what teachers for what students deserve.

Roxanna Elden: 19:58

Because I also think that there is something I call it, like, the teaching sucks genre. I try to steer away from that, and I try to steer teachers away from that if they have to go into work the day. Because, yes, you can complain about the job of teaching, and you can be 100% right. There's plenty to complain about. But when we talk about being honest about teaching, I don't necessarily think I think when we talk about being honest about teaching, I think a lot of people immediately say, yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 20:28

Let's talk about how much teaching sucks.

Bryan Dewsbury: 20:30

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 20:30

Right? And that's not what teachers need either. You wanna feel like you're in a noble profession that's one of the oldest professions of humanity that will always be with us in some form Mhmm. Where you can recognize another teacher from across a room of people you've never met before. It crosses all kinds of, you know, cultural and class lines Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 20:53

For you to meet another teacher. You immediately have things to talk about. It's something that I've always was proud to say I was a teacher. I mean, there's and there's so much to like about teaching

Bryan Dewsbury: 21:04

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 21:04

When it's going right. And even when it's going just okay, even when it's going badly, but you handled it

Bryan Dewsbury: 21:09

well. Right.

Roxanna Elden: 21:10

There's so much to like about it. So it's not being honest about how much teaching can suck. It's about being honest about what are the trade offs

Bryan Dewsbury: 21:20

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 21:21

That we never talk about and that you need to make a decision, then you need to be able to admit to someone that you've made the decision.

Bryan Dewsbury: 21:28

Mhmm. Right or wrong? Right? And and I guess that's that's one of the things that maybe I'm hoping kind of listeners take from here because I also know you didn't mention this, but I also know that you you you don't you also don't like the the hyperbole superhero narrative of teaching, like, freedom writers type of thing. And and so, you know, that's almost like one extreme.

Bryan Dewsbury: 21:50

Yes. And then the teaching sucks is kinda the other extreme, and it feels like what your argument is teaching is real life. You show up. You're human. You're trying to make relationships.

Bryan Dewsbury: 21:59

You're trying to do best with what the system gives you. And in making in in engaging in that effort, mistakes are gonna be made. There are gonna be successes, and there's gonna be a lot of stuff in between. And the conversation to be had about that everyday experience needs to bring in all of that in its most authentic and truthful self, which to me is a narrative that can apply to all levels of teaching. I actually thought you're gonna say, you know, when you were talking about giving advice to your sister and friends and you woke up one day and like, wait a second.

Bryan Dewsbury: 22:32

I should charge you. What do what the hell, man? Like, Friday evening, you all have me. Right. Take a six pack of Stella.

Bryan Dewsbury: 22:41

Alright. So the the the book you wrote, the first book you wrote, see me after class, the subtitle is advice for teachers by teachers available Amazon anywhere you get your books. Mhmm. So the advice for teachers by teachers part, it's because you interviewed a lot of actual teachers. Yes.

Bryan Dewsbury: 23:01

So so talk to talk to us about that and and, you know, what sort of gave the book its special flavor because of that process.

Roxanna Elden: 23:07

Sure. I interviewed over a 100 teachers pretty much all anonymously. They had the choice whether they wanted to be listed in the acknowledgments. But for the most part, I tried to keep it very vague and change identifying details because I wanted people to be as honest with me as they possibly could. And then I found that after I interviewed a 100 or so people, then I felt like it was my job as the author.

Roxanna Elden: 23:37

It it became my job as the author to pick out the themes that I was hearing that were what I think teachers need to know that aren't being told. Mhmm. So there's just different chapters on the probably what you would think. Mhmm. You know?

Roxanna Elden: 23:52

Mhmm. Grading work without hating work is the one that addresses what we talked about, but there's the classroom management chapter, etcetera, etcetera. And it's just what I think no one says and then what I think should be said Uh-huh. And then stories from other teachers to

Bryan Dewsbury: 24:12

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 24:12

To give a little context. Yeah.

Bryan Dewsbury: 24:15

So is the is the arc of that book is is the arc of that book what informed the course that you just talked about?

Roxanna Elden: 24:22

So does it inform the course? I would say my career in education has been very weird. I always have trouble writing a bio for myself.

Bryan Dewsbury: 24:30

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 24:33

Because the the common thread of what I've always tried to do, I've written see me after class, and I wrote a novel that I describe as The Office, but set in an urban high school

Bryan Dewsbury: 24:45

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 24:46

Which was trying to capture the the way that teachers' personal lives and professional lives interact and then sometimes how politics trickles down to that. And now I have courses for teachers that are meant for teachers to be able to afford to take them themselves, kind of bite sized mini courses that are backed up by my support.

Bryan Dewsbury: 25:11

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 25:12

That, by the way, people can find out more about in my website, which is roxannaeldon.com. Mhmm. And I have some free resources that they can

Bryan Dewsbury: 25:20

also download. Adding this to the to the resource page.

Roxanna Elden: 25:24

But I would say that almost seems like it connects more to see me after class, my first book, plus all of the workshops and and speaking gigs and

Bryan Dewsbury: 25:36

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 25:36

One on one coaching that I did as a result of that. Mhmm. But the through line of my of my bio that and I know this because I revised it many times, is I try to cut through the cliches that people usually use when they talk about teaching.

Bryan Dewsbury: 25:55

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 25:55

And I try to get to something that is honest, practical, nuanced, and sometimes funny. Mhmm. And that is the one thing that I can say applies to every single thing that I've done since I've started talking about teaching. Mhmm.

Bryan Dewsbury: 26:11

How many how many episodes are in the course? I shouldn't call it episodes. Maybe I'm podcast mind. But how many modules are in the course?

Roxanna Elden: 26:21

There are about six

Bryan Dewsbury: 26:22

Uh-huh.

Roxanna Elden: 26:22

Depending on how you slice it. Experiment with different ways of delivering those because I know that some people prefer to have all access Mhmm. Plus some personalized coaching calls. Mhmm. And then some people would rather just pay for the one thing they need and only check-in if they need to.

Roxanna Elden: 26:42

Yeah. So it it it's about six. I may add some, and then there's Yeah. Bundles and ways to combine them. Sure.

Bryan Dewsbury: 26:49

Alright. Let let's look at adequate yearly progress, which I'll I'll confess is my favorite of the two. Not that I didn't like the first one, just that genre wise, right, that's this sort of like based on real life but turned into a story and maybe to an extent I think it gives you an opportunity to sort of draw themes out in ways that are a little bit more difficult when you're just trying to do something biographical. And that book had, like you said, right, you you it's a mix of the personal and professional, and you you try to kinda humanize the characters and understand and get the reader to understand how choices made in their personal life was brought to be and how they approach the classroom to a certain extent. Maybe I can start with what led you to want to take that kind of project on especially after written or just writing an advice book.

Bryan Dewsbury: 27:46

What made that the approach you wanted to try out?

Roxanna Elden: 27:49

Alright. So I'm gonna I'm gonna tell a little bit of a personal story that answers your question. So See Me After Class came out in 02/2009, and it was about a five year process to get that book out because I didn't know how to write a book or or get it published or anything. And it came out pretty much on the last day of school. It was this amazing moment.

Roxanna Elden: 28:13

My students showed up. My vice principal showed up and said my discipline was good, I never sent anyone to the office, which made me tear up. And and it was just like everything you know, it's like the end of the movie.

Bryan Dewsbury: 28:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 28:28

Yeah. But there's no real end of the movie in real life. So then I spent that summer not having a book to write.

Bryan Dewsbury: 28:37

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 28:38

Supposedly promoting that book, but that really amounted to me writing guest blogs and then hitting refresh over and over and over to see if anyone had commented on the guest blogs. And I just I had this hole in my life, and it was this real letdown that I've since heard other authors say there's kinda like a postpartum depression that sets in after the book comes out. And the feeling of accomplishment of of writing a book just evaporated. And what I realized is

Bryan Dewsbury: 29:14

Almost immediately?

Roxanna Elden: 29:15

No. No. I mean, it was great, and I'm still proud of it. But it's not it's not a feeling you wake up every day and you go like, hey. How about that book I wrote?

Bryan Dewsbury: 29:25

Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 29:25

Right? So I didn't, you know, I didn't think too much of it at the time. Went through that summer. And then the following school year, I, I I always bribed my students,

Bryan Dewsbury: 29:40

or

Roxanna Elden: 29:40

I always used to bribe my students to participate in this thing called National Novel Writing Month, which is every November, beginning at midnight on November 1, ending midnight on December 1, you have to come up with a 50,000 word rough draft Mhmm. Of a novel. And the only way you can accomplish that is by speeding through it, never looking back at what you wrote, not worrying about whether you wrote as good, Sometimes probably just sitting there typing, like, not sure what to say next, so I'll say this.

Bryan Dewsbury: 30:12

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 30:13

But at the end of it, you have a draft of a novel. So for a few years by then, I had bribed my students with extra credit and pizza parties to participate in that. And it was always optional, but I always had about 10 students who did it and who actually completed it. Mhmm. And that particular year in November 2009, one of my students said, like, how about you, miss Eldon?

Roxanna Elden: 30:40

You've never done national novel writing a

Bryan Dewsbury: 30:43

month. Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 30:43

And all of a sudden, I said, okay. I'm gonna do it. Mhmm. And I knew exactly what I wanted in a novel that I had never seen, which was a multi character split point of view novel that followed several teachers. I was a fan of Tom Wolfe.

Roxanna Elden: 30:59

I was a fan of Zadie Smith, and I was a fan of Jennifer Egan. Those are those are some of my favorite authors that do that. And I said, this needs to be a novel about teachers. And then shows like The Office and Parks and Rec. Like, I I like that tone

Segev Amasay: 31:13

where it's

Roxanna Elden: 31:14

you they all they address real issues.

Bryan Dewsbury: 31:16

You just like Lil' Sebastian. That's all it is. I do like Lil' Sebastian.

Roxanna Elden: 31:22

I like shows that deal with workplace issues and deal with personal issues. Serious issues make you think about them, but in a humorous way that that you can take, but they really mix the the two. Mhmm. So I just set out to write that type of novel, and it I thought I would be done in a couple years, and it ended up taking me eight years to finish that novel. But once I started, I could not let go of it.

Roxanna Elden: 31:47

And then I realized that what I really enjoyed is working on a project, figuring out,

Bryan Dewsbury: 31:52

you know Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 31:53

Figuring out my way through challenges of a project.

Bryan Dewsbury: 31:56

Which of the characters okay. I'm gonna ask you a couple questions. Mhmm. Which of the characters were the hardest to write?

Roxanna Elden: 32:05

Oh, that's a good question. I thought you were gonna ask me which one is me, and I had my answer prepared for that. But which is, like, which of the characters was

Bryan Dewsbury: 32:14

the hardest? Well, that was just see that first that question I thought I was gonna ask. That's the easy stuff. I feel like everybody who gets a chance to talk to an author assumes that they wrote themselves in and and I I I think maybe through my own reading and going to book talks and stuff you realize I don't assume that that's the case. Even if it is, don't assume they'll be honest and tell you.

Bryan Dewsbury: 32:34

Right? But so my question is just about you wrote the characters. Which one was the hardest to

Roxanna Elden: 32:38

write? Which one was the hardest to write? A lot of my characters were based on collections of observations that I made about teaching.

Bryan Dewsbury: 32:50

Mhmm. And in so doing, can you maybe explain a little bit to the audience what the book's about? I mean Sure. You can kind of intuit, but but maybe just to help them. Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 32:58

It it is a multiple point of view novel that follows about five major high school teacher characters at the same urban high school in a city in Texas that is not Houston by name, but it's a lot like Houston. Mhmm. And the teachers are very different demographically. They each teach a different subject, which informs the way they look at things and the way they look at life. I mean, a scientist is gonna think scientifically.

Roxanna Elden: 33:29

A math person is going to be very mathematical and organized, you you might think. And so and they would each have different knowledge bases that they would filter things through.

Bryan Dewsbury: 33:40

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 33:41

But they also each got into teaching different ways, and they're very have very different teaching styles. And they also span different cultures and genders and So I think that each of them, if they're based on anything, they're based on a collection of observations about teaching in the educational world. And then I kind of assign those to the person who would be best who would be the best filter to express those things to the audience. And the personalities of the teachers, maybe just because it took so long to write this thing, became so clear. I would just be out.

Roxanna Elden: 34:27

Mhmm. And I would just see someone. I go, you know what? This person has something in common with this character. Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 34:33

And I would just make a note of it, and I was I'm constantly sending myself emails with ideas for the book. That's how I collect the ideas. So that all came pretty naturally. But then that being said, there were aspects of these characters' lives that I did need to research because I didn't have the knowledge base and experiences these characters had. So in particular, one of the characters is a football coach.

Bryan Dewsbury: 35:00

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 35:01

I'm not much of a sports person in general, let alone a football fan.

Bryan Dewsbury: 35:06

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 35:07

But I didn't want this person to be a caricature. You did? I did not. I didn't want any of my characters to be caricatures.

Bryan Dewsbury: 35:16

Oh, caricatures, sir. Caricatures. Heard characters. Sorry.

Roxanna Elden: 35:18

I I wanted to feel like his observations were coming from him

Bryan Dewsbury: 35:22

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 35:23

Not me

Bryan Dewsbury: 35:25

Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 35:26

Through someone I'm calling a football coach. Right. So I definitely, hung out with a football coach that I was friendly with at my school who was extremely generous in making me not sound idiotic. Mhmm. And then I had another friend who was a sports writer who used to cover high school sports.

Roxanna Elden: 35:48

He he also gave it a pass. And then I just I had to read some books about football. I had to find my way into what interested me about football, and I was able to do that. I mean, I still am not someone who would sit down and watch a football game for fun.

Bryan Dewsbury: 36:04

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 36:05

But there have been books about football that I really was able to get into that were about, you know, the youth football culture, football coaching. And I would I cannot say if I did a good job because at this point, I actually don't read reviews of my work because I I don't think I can handle it. I could quote any review that is negative word for word, and I need to stay away from those. Mhmm. But you'd have to ask someone else how I did.

Roxanna Elden: 36:37

And the same goes for any other

Bryan Dewsbury: 36:39

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 36:40

You know, for any other character. But I think that's something I can point to where it's like, this was a complete gap in my knowledge that I had to fill in.

Bryan Dewsbury: 36:48

So which was your your your, favorite to write?

Roxanna Elden: 36:52

My favorite character to write. Weirdly, because there is an English teacher, I taught English. Mhmm. There is someone who demographically matches me, although personality wise, not so much. Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 37:09

But the person that I really enjoyed exploring her character was a character called Maybelline

Bryan Dewsbury: 37:18

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 37:18

Who's a math teacher and who was really based on people who I personally almost never click with.

Bryan Dewsbury: 37:27

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 37:29

Now I these are never people that I hate, but they are people where I'm just like, it's not my type of person, and I can tell I'm not their type of person.

Bryan Dewsbury: 37:39

Right. Right.

Roxanna Elden: 37:41

And in creating this character, it just forced me to go, okay. What what would these people think from their point of view?

Bryan Dewsbury: 37:48

And Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 37:48

I was able to really, I think, become more compassionate toward that personality type. Mhmm. And I just enjoyed writing this character so much because, again, it's not somebody I hate. It's it's almost like a personality type I can't figure out.

Bryan Dewsbury: 38:05

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 38:06

But it it's for real. Like, these the people who are who share her personality traits, that's the most natural to

Bryan Dewsbury: 38:15

them. Right.

Roxanna Elden: 38:16

So that I think that was the the storyline I enjoyed the most.

Bryan Dewsbury: 38:20

So so my favorite character, and I'm blanking on names because it's been a while since I've read it, but there's a teacher from Philly.

Roxanna Elden: 38:27

Mhmm.

Bryan Dewsbury: 38:27

And she had she was in I don't wanna spoil the ending for people, but she was in love with a poet, and and so you sort of followed her for a while, and this is kinda some decisions that she made. And it it maybe I I like that character because of one of the things that I'm sensitive to or maybe very interested in in terms of humanization of education is is that people are complex. Situations are complex. Identity is complex. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury: 38:53

And very often, you didn't say this explicitly, but I think you've implied it several times in this conversation. Very often, the achievement conversation, the equity and education conversation gets boiled onto simple matters of black and white and poor and rich and low income not low income. And you know those variables exist but you know somebody who presents as a person of coloured you know that presentation doesn't necessarily speak to the complexity and nonlinearity of the experience. Right? And what they navigate with respect to that.

Bryan Dewsbury: 39:27

And I'm partly seeing this as somebody who is of color and who's an immigrant. Right? And grew up in a culture where, you know, I mean, yes, that was still my identity, but how that unfolded in Trinidad is different to how it unfolded in my 25 in The US. And this is not what this character was in international, but I think there was some of that in her past. So I loved how that came out.

Bryan Dewsbury: 39:50

And I imagined that it took a little bit of work to explore that and to figure out how to tell that story. So could you talk a little bit about that?

Roxanna Elden: 40:00

Okay, I love the observations that you're making. I mean I I I just love hearing you as a reader Mhmm. Say that because it's it's a perfect, you know, I'm so glad that someone read it and took that away. Because that was one of the things that I think needs to be explored if you're gonna get a panoramic view of education, which is okay. How do I put this without diving into cliches?

Roxanna Elden: 40:29

And I'm gonna have another

Bryan Dewsbury: 40:30

Yeah. Go for it. Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 40:32

So this is a the character that you are describing her, her name is Lena Wright. Mhmm. She's the English teacher character.

Bryan Dewsbury: 40:40

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 40:41

And I think English is English in particular, I think, is a teaching subject that attracts people who wanna discuss things with students Mhmm. And kind of open students' minds.

Bryan Dewsbury: 41:02

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 41:03

And it also I feel like I'm going down a road that doesn't make a sense Good question. Good to us. There's a lot of personality deciding how and what to teach English. As much as you might try to give guidelines to teachers, your personality is gonna come through quite a bit and your viewpoint is gonna come through quite a bit whether you wanted to or not as an English teacher. So this is a a teacher who comes from a very educated background.

Roxanna Elden: 41:36

She's African American, so, you know, she looks like quite a few of her students in this school.

Bryan Dewsbury: 41:42

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 41:43

However, this school is predominantly not students whose parents are professors. Mhmm. And she is a child of something along those lines or potentially is is a child of professors. So she wants to teach her students the way that she thinks that her you know, based on what she thinks she can bring to the table, but also she was a way of exploring what teachers want out of being a teacher.

Bryan Dewsbury: 42:17

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 42:18

And one of my theories going into the book and also my theory in general, we all want something out of being a teacher. Mhmm. And what she wanted out of being a teacher was to be part of a community and specifically what she saw as her community.

Bryan Dewsbury: 42:35

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 42:36

So, yes, she grew up from a very educated and you could say privileged background. At the same time, she grew up as an only child as in a very small family, no pets, not a lot of connection to the what she would consider the wider culture. Mhmm. And so here she is in the South Right. Hoping to reconnect with something that she's hoping to connect with.

Bryan Dewsbury: 43:03

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 43:04

And that part is not going as well as Right. It she would have hoped.

Bryan Dewsbury: 43:09

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 43:10

And especially because there are some flashbacks to her first year. She's not someone who, you know, is struggling in the typical, you know, new teacher movie way of classroom management. And she's a pretty dynamic and charismatic person, so she's not necessarily having trouble getting through to students. But at the same time, she's not coming off the way that she hoped to.

Bryan Dewsbury: 43:33

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 43:34

And that's part of what she needs to learn and and figure out what she's gonna do about it.

Bryan Dewsbury: 43:40

Right. But that's okay. So I I I get that. But the the honestly, the most powerful thing I took away from your description is you have somebody, and again, this is me betraying some personal experiences here. You have somebody who presents a certain way physically.

Bryan Dewsbury: 43:58

Mhmm. And you you find yourself in community with other people who present that way as well. Mhmm. But you are starkly reminded Mhmm. That in reality and in for many variables, you are kind of in the old group.

Roxanna Elden: 44:13

Mhmm.

Bryan Dewsbury: 44:14

Right? And and so how do you I mean, there's no law saying that you have to be in the in group, but you saw you still feel it. Right? So even though you say and I'll okay. I'll just be straight up.

Bryan Dewsbury: 44:24

Like, when I got to Morehouse College, I you know, historically black college, 99% black, all male identifying students. Right? You know? My accent stuck out. My, you know, I you know, music choices and stuff like that stuck out and but there was this part of you feeling like, oh, wow.

Bryan Dewsbury: 44:41

I'm I'm supposed to like this music. I'm supposed to know more about these artists and things like that. And I know you didn't go into that much detail with his character, but just this message about assumption of of monolithicity. Is that a word? Monolithicness?

Bryan Dewsbury: 44:56

It is now. It is now. Right? Yeah. But but you you get what I'm saying.

Bryan Dewsbury: 44:59

Right? And knowing intellectually that that's not rational, but also still feeling psychologically like, you know, am I supposed to? And it felt like that's what she was navigating.

Roxanna Elden: 45:17

Yes. Uh-huh. Good observation. And I think what part of what you're pointing to is just like teachers have this abyss area of things they're never able to talk about because Mhmm. They are not supposed to exist.

Roxanna Elden: 45:32

I think those exist in a lot of areas of our lives. And one of them, I do believe, can be connecting to your culture or or your culture in quotations. Like, what what is your culture? Mhmm. Wanting to be part of a community can be a very weird thing to admit.

Roxanna Elden: 45:51

Mhmm. And then it also is hard to figure out.

Bryan Dewsbury: 45:56

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 45:58

So, I mean, I don't I don't know if that's exactly Mhmm. I guess I'm just kind of seconding your point in a different way. But, I mean, I think it's okay to wanna be part of a community. I think that can be a goal in your life that you're working toward, but it's just such a goofy thing to admit. And then you can't ask the question how if you can't admit that that's what you'd like to do.

Roxanna Elden: 46:24

Yeah. And, that's something that I do explore through her through her and also on behalf of teachers in general because this is certainly not limited to her culture. I mean, I I did see what I would perceive as this dilemma, with many teachers teaching what would be supposedly their own culture if you took a picture of the class with the teacher in front

Bryan Dewsbury: 46:48

of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 46:50

Because there are so many variations. And if you hope to be an insider and you've been an outsider in various ways your whole life, which is her case, And then you find that you're an outsider in a completely different and unexpected way Mhmm. Even though on paper you may look like your students, that's for that particular character, that's something very difficult. Yeah. But in general, that's something that I think people struggle with.

Roxanna Elden: 47:20

Yeah. I do feel like I'm in a totally different topic.

Bryan Dewsbury: 47:23

No. No. Well, no. You're not. And again, sensitive to it partly.

Bryan Dewsbury: 47:28

This is something I've been thinking about. In fact, I've been exploring with our colleague, doctor Yisi Sathe Vega. We've been exploring a whole different way of thinking about belonging because sometimes, and this is back to Lina, that sometimes the assumptions are binary is like, you know, to belong is good, to not belong is bad. And maybe without any kind of nuance that for a lot of people, your your life is such that you're never really in a place where the belonging is just automatic. Is that your professional and personal life shapes and shifts and, you know, between marriage, partners, friends, and stuff.

Bryan Dewsbury: 48:03

What you're actually doing is you're always gonna see the adaptation. Mhmm. And and that is not necessarily always a bad thing. Right? There are things to be learned from that.

Bryan Dewsbury: 48:10

So I guess what I took from Lina was not so much, okay, is there a point where she could belong finally, but more of how is Lina just handling this this these several new circumstances that is forcing her to relook at her own identity. Right? And I don't think that question has to have one answer.

Roxanna Elden: 48:30

Yes. That makes a lot of sense. I like what you're saying about adaptation. Mhmm. And I think this this is reminding me that what I had hoped to say about teaching.

Roxanna Elden: 48:40

I think one of the dilemmas that people face in teaching, and more for some people than others, is what does it mean to be part of a community as a teacher? Mhmm. Because certainly a trap to avoid, and this is me talking as someone who gives advice to teachers. Mhmm. Being one of the kids is not the target to aim for.

Roxanna Elden: 49:03

Right. And that's not she she knows that.

Bryan Dewsbury: 49:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 49:06

But what does it mean to be embraced by a community when you are by nature?

Bryan Dewsbury: 49:12

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 49:12

They're all sitting in seats. You're at the front of the class. They're the same age. You're a different age.

Bryan Dewsbury: 49:17

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 49:18

You're there to bring something they don't have. So you're not really going to be exactly part of the community in the way that a new kid moving to the high school and joining the student body would be. So what does it mean to be become part of a community but in the capacity of teachers? Because you're also probably not gonna be best buddies with your students' parents who are closer to your age. So that was one of the things I explored through that character.

Roxanna Elden: 49:47

And for a teacher that that's important to Mhmm. I think many of us, and I count myself in that. Mhmm. I I moved to a new city as a teacher. Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 49:59

And I certainly didn't wanna be completely alone, feel completely alone and isolated when I was there. For teachers teaching in their a lot of teachers are teaching in cities where they grow grew up, but often not the neighborhood where

Bryan Dewsbury: 50:14

they grew up. Right. Right.

Roxanna Elden: 50:15

And then some teachers are teaching in the high school they went to high school.

Bryan Dewsbury: 50:18

Right. Right.

Roxanna Elden: 50:19

So that's a whole different dilemma and I think that is also addressed in the book in different ways.

Bryan Dewsbury: 50:26

So let me I'll get you out of here on this this last point which you actually kind of just brought up and made me think about English teaching in a different way. And I think your exact phrase was people who teach English, one of the reasons why they do it is because they are attracted to dialogue. They are attracted to, You know, there's something new. And and and I've heard that said in a different way at a college level in terms of, you know, there's typically only one way osmosis works. Right?

Bryan Dewsbury: 50:57

So, like, every I I know I brought up a science topic, but, you know, a lot of science concepts, like, I'm a big advocate of dialogue in the science classroom. People who know my work know that, but there there are certainly a lot of proofs that we are not no longer disputing thermodynamics, etcetera. So to some extent, those kinds of discussions are leading to the same conclusion whether it's, you know, intro bio in 2020, 2021, whatever. Right? But what it sounds like it's you can teach Huckleberry Finn or whatever, and next year's class will take something a whole different tack from it than last year's class and the classes after that and that's that's part of the beauty of it but also with that you know 1B is this this class only makes sense if we are in conversation That's the whole point of this.

Bryan Dewsbury: 51:46

This is not me coming to tell you. And I guess right now I feel like that process and that way of thinking about education has a lot to teach the world and particularly our society right now. The value of dialogue, value of listening, the value of hearing different points of view, the value of bringing life experience to an opinion to a classic text. I wonder if that's just something you thought about whether whether it was when you were actually teaching or even when you you know consult with teachers now this sort of special place that that classroom has to teach that particular skill especially in the communities that you've worked in.

Roxanna Elden: 52:30

That is such a it's a good question. Also, such a big question.

Bryan Dewsbury: 52:34

I know. I know. I know. That's that's why we end with it.

Roxanna Elden: 52:38

So I wanna be careful because all subjects do this to

Bryan Dewsbury: 52:42

a certain extent. I agree with you. 100%.

Roxanna Elden: 52:44

But Mhmm. Especially with English

Bryan Dewsbury: 52:47

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 52:48

You are teaching always a combination of material, and you're teaching some type of thinking skill

Bryan Dewsbury: 52:56

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 52:56

Along with that material. But there's not not in math, you have the exact match.

Bryan Dewsbury: 53:02

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 53:03

Right? You're teaching the division problems, but then you're also teaching how to solve division problems and how to understand division. When you teach Romeo and Juliet and that, by the way, I taught that 36 times.

Bryan Dewsbury: 53:17

Not at your company. Too.

Roxanna Elden: 53:21

Until I begged my principal to give me a different class because I just could not with that anymore. But I mean, it's a good story. He's Strongly recommend.

Bryan Dewsbury: 53:32

Get some as night dream.

Roxanna Elden: 53:34

But still, yeah. When you're teaching Romeo and Juliet, what are what thinking skill is supposed to go along with that? Is it understanding language that's from hundreds of years ago?

Bryan Dewsbury: 53:45

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 53:46

Is it looking at things from different points of view of characters that all have a distinct and right point of view. Mhmm. Is it just knowing one of the classics that people will refer to your whole life? Is it appreciating drama?

Bryan Dewsbury: 54:02

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 54:03

Or is there some other do we wanna have a debate about this? And if so, what do we wanna debate? Right. And anything you read can be approached in so many different ways, and some of it is gonna come from what do you think these students need from this experience?

Bryan Dewsbury: 54:21

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 54:22

So there's just more ways of combining thinking skills

Bryan Dewsbury: 54:27

Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 54:28

Communication skills.

Bryan Dewsbury: 54:30

Right.

Roxanna Elden: 54:31

Critical thinking, which is very hard to teach on its own. But I do think is tremendously a responsibility of an English teacher and it's always a puzzle to figure out. And how yeah. How did do you start and what's your goal even? Right?

Roxanna Elden: 54:53

Because at the end of the year, students are gonna take a certain kind of test. In math, I believe that those tests more or less test what the kids know.

Bryan Dewsbury: 55:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Roxanna Elden: 55:01

And in higher level English, they they will never capture what you've Mhmm. Fully what you've hoped to give to students.

Bryan Dewsbury: 55:10

Could you tell us a bit more about where people can find your course?

Roxanna Elden: 55:16

Sure. My website is roxanaeldon.com, and it is hopefully set up so that you can find everything that you need about

Bryan Dewsbury: 55:23

me. Set up like that. Including the the YouTube channel. Right? That's

Roxanna Elden: 55:29

I also have a YouTube channel that I'm that is pretty new.

Bryan Dewsbury: 55:33

Uh-huh.

Roxanna Elden: 55:33

And I you're welcome to watch those videos. But if you but most of those videos will also direct you back to the website Okay. Okay. Where you can download a free classroom management guide.

Bryan Dewsbury: 55:49

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Roxanna Elden: 55:49

And that will also put you on my occasional mailing list where I'll share thoughts about teaching. Everything is geared toward making teacher your teacher life more manageable. Okay.

Bryan Dewsbury: 56:01

Roxanna Eldon Valmar, author of See Me After Class, Advice for Teachers by Teachers and Adequate TLE Progress. Thank you so much for joining us.

Roxanna Elden: 56:10

Can I can I say thank you for having me now? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Roxanna Elden: 56:14

This is a fantastic conversation.

Bryan Dewsbury: 56:16

You you act like I prevented you from doing it earlier.

Roxanna Elden: 56:19

You literally prevented me from doing that at the beginning

Bryan Dewsbury: 56:22

of the Hey. Thanks so much, man.

Roxanna Elden: 56:24

Thank you.

Bryan Dewsbury: 56:31

Knowledge Unbound is brought to you by the RIOS Institute for Racially Just Inclusive Open STEM Education. We are generously funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. Thank you once again to my guest today, Roxanna Eldon Valmar. You can catch your book, see me after class and adequate yearly progress wherever you buy your books. As always, the producer, mister Segev Amasai, class of 2025.

Bryan Dewsbury: 57:01

Segev, how was that episode? Very it's very insightful. It will be. Well, I do hate you, man. Before you answer.

Bryan Dewsbury: 57:10

Before you answer. The reason why I ask is because this is our furious episode that kind of looks at secondary education directly. Right? So the authors Roxanna was talking about teachers. And I guess just for you since you were closer to secondary education than I was, I just wondered how some of the things that you brought up, how it sat with you.

Segev Amasay: 57:32

Well, the one thing that just really stuck out to me was just how long she's been doing for doing this for a good, like, fifteen years because her book was released in 02/2009.

Bryan Dewsbury: 57:41

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Segev Amasay: 57:44

You know, definitely take you can definitely take the word of someone that's been doing this for quite a long time and just kinda see how how her work evolves, you know, with Overtime. Yes. Overtime.

Bryan Dewsbury: 57:57

Yeah. I mean, for me, it's it's and I guess this is, you know, my parting message. You know? The way I would put it, I guess, when I when I read her books, especially adequate yearly progress, and see me after classes at an extent but everything has a hidden curriculum. You know, we talk about hidden curriculum a lot when it comes to students and the things that they aren't told or need to find out to be successful in in higher ed.

Bryan Dewsbury: 58:22

But but even when we practice our craft at whatever level we do that practice at, there are things they don't say out loud and and maybe to the extent that her work says the quiet part out loud. You know, that was really enjoyable. So I hope that's what you take from our conversation this week. This is a bonus episode. You know, we we just wanted to do something special for all of the teachers, professors included, who are going back to the classroom.

Bryan Dewsbury: 58:47

We wish you just the very, very best academic year going forward and and hope that your students bring you pride and joy and love and community and that you do as you always do, which is put your best foot forward in the classroom. As always, please be excellent to each other. Just

Roxanna Elden: 59:06

like teachers have this abyss area of things they're never able to talk about because Mhmm. They are not supposed to exist. I think those exist in a lot of areas of our lives. And one of them I do believe can be connecting to your culture or your culture in quotations,

Bryan Dewsbury: 59:27

like

Roxanna Elden: 59:27

what is your culture? I think one of the dilemmas that people face in teaching and more for some people than others is what does it mean to be part of a community as a teacher? You're there to bring something they don't have. So you're not really going to be exactly part of the community in the way that a new kid moving to the high school and joining the student body would be. So what does it mean to be become part of a community but in the capacity?